Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Do Imperium really need Space Marines?

I noticed some people saying that the Guard and others are doing the job just fine without them. Do that mean that Imperium don't longer need them?

GW would lose more than 50% of their profits if space marines went bye bye. So no.

Its the opposite.

without Marines, the Guard would have failed long ago.

likewise, the Marines can't defend the entire imperium.

neither can protect the Imperium without the other.

woodbok wrote:GW would lose more than 50% of their profits if space marines went bye bye. So no.

QFT, and fluff-wise yeah they are still needed, as the Guard aren't terribly good in more tactical or offensive situations.

Sunoccard wrote:

woodbok wrote:GW would lose more than 50% of their profits if space marines went bye bye. So no.

QFT, and fluff-wise yeah they are still needed, as the Guard aren't terribly good in more tactical or offensive situations.

Not completely true, "drown them in bodies" is a valid offensive tactic.

They're like different tools. You need both hammers and screwdrivers in your toolbox, and neither does very well in a situation where the other tool is called for.

Would the US army be the same without Green Berets? or Delta force? Would they be just as effective?

Answer: nO

Imperial Guard is already stretched to its limit and the Space Marine Chapters can do operations that would require hundreds if not thousands of Regiments. They'd be overwhelmed without them.

shadowsnip wrote:Would the US army be the same without Green Berets? or Delta force? Would they be just as effective?

Answer: nO

You kind of picked a bad example:

They did fine before they existed.

A better way to phrase it might have been would the US Army be as effective without the Calvary or Artillery.
Combined with the infantry they form a cohesive, versatile force. But alone each element has serious draw backs.
Special Forces are force multipliers in a more strategic sense, or to give rapid violent action to small scale operations, they are not a battlefield game changer.

The importance of Space Marines in the setting has been on a decline ever since the Great Crusade ended. Without the Astartes, the Emperor could have never conquered all the lost colonies of humanity - at least not in that timeframe. However, the Imperial Guard, back then only an "auxiliary" for the Marines, has since replaced the Chapters as the Imperium's primary fighting force. Space Marine Chapters have withdrawn into a state of semi-independence and unreliability, occasionally venturing forth from their Fortress Monasteries to combat a threat or answer the call of an ally, but as a whole their existence outside Imperial hierarchy as well as their small numbers make them somewhat redundant.

The Imperium *could* do without them - yet the Space Marines are still a force to be reckoned with and have a major impact on any battle where they do show up, so I also believe that the Imperium would have a much harder time with much more losses, both in men and material as well as entire worlds.

In a way, you could probably compare the Marines to Titans. They are not the pillar of the Imperium's survival, but it's really, really, really nice to have them.

Harriticus wrote:Imperial Guard is already stretched to its limit and the Space Marine Chapters can do operations that would require hundreds if not thousands of Regiments. They'd be overwhelmed without them.

Uh, Rogal Dorn would like to have a word with you.

Rogal's dead, I think?

*cocks bolt pistol* You spoiled the surprise!

... but yeah, fair enough, was just referring to one of his sayings.

Yes, Dorn's dead, but Lysander's still kicking. Space Marines are basically demigods/special forces. Their job is to get in, kill everything at reach, save the day and let the guard take over the rest of the planet while they go stop the Tyranid invasion a few systems away.

Here's an example taken from an awesome story written by Toasterman:

There's this planet with a gakload of Necrons in it. They have lots of troops and some mean anti-air batteries. Like, huge Gauss spires that can pick off Cruisers like flies. What does the imperium do? They sent a small force com`posed of Cato Sicarius, Preds, Land Raiders and some marines far enough from the spires so the Necrons don't spot them. What's the plan? Take down the spires so the Imperium and land a few billion guardsmen, coupe thousand artilery pieces, a gakload of tanks and some titans. What happens next? Well, you should read the story. It's called The Confederate. I'm just going to say that me, a man who doesn't like Sicarius very much, laughed his ass off.

It was established that the Imperium is slowly losing planets; it can't afford to lose any soldiers. Without the Space Marines those losses would be a lot bigger.

The Space Marines are the first and last line of defense for the Imperium. The Imperium isn't exactly in a good place right now and the Marines are all that's standing between mankind and annihilation.

Space marines are the main answer for combating chaos. So they are still needed.

I would say that the Imperium would really be hurting if they didn't have Space Marines. As it is with the Space Marines they are still slowly losing everything aren't they? The loss of all of the Space Marines would hurt the Imperium as much or as more as losing all of the Imperial Guard.

Lynata wrote:Uh, Rogal Dorn would like to have a word with you.

The potency of Marines doesn't increase linearly when you add more of them, it increases exponentially.

The Space Marines fill a niche that the Imperial Guard simply can't.

Likewise, the Imperial Guard are just as necessary.

Marines can act quickly and without the permission of the administatum. They strike fast and hard and buy time for the gears of the IoM to get turning and guard regiments to be dispatched. They also take on missions that no small group of humans could, such as space hulk clearing, without massive casualties and time.

Without marines you'd have stormtroopers in terminator armor. Can't say I dislike the idea of storm teriminators with multilas.
I mean, really, what do marines do besides fall to chaos and be a dick to everyone in the imperium?
If marines never existed, there'd be no real heresy because it is infinitely easier to mop up traitor guardsmen than say, a black crusade.
All those other "marines save the day" scenarios could probably be replicated by stormtroops of some kind. You'd just have to use a lot more of them.

Void__Dragon wrote:The potency of Marines doesn't increase linearly when you add more of them, it increases exponentially.

Whilst that is certainly true, it is far easier to make lots of Guard regiments fight alongside each other than Marine Chapters. And I'm not just talking about the difference in numbers there.

Void__Dragon wrote:The Space Marines fill a niche that the Imperial Guard simply can't.

I would have to disagree here - there isn't any problem that can be solved by Space Marines that would not be likewise solvable by throwing lots and lots of IG bodies at it. And as has been pointed out, the Marines are almost as much a liability as they are an asset (though fortunately Chapters like the Ultramarines and Black Templars currently seem to be more prevalent than those like the Space Wolves or Sons of Horus).

Personally, I'm thinking like terranarc here. The Marines are nice to have, but they are not irreplacable. Though a long "period of adaption" would surely hurt, if (theoretically) Marines would suddenly all drop dead from one day to another. You may even argue that the Imperium could not adapt at all, but the potential is there (see Skitarii, for example). All the resources currently funneled into equipping Marine Chapters that don't bother responding to distress calls half of the time due to considering themselves above Imperial hierarchy or simply because they don't like the guy who called them could just as well be put to use within the Imperial Guard. It'd just take a lot of reorganization.

terranarc wrote:Without marines you'd have stormtroopers in terminator armor. Can't say I dislike the idea of storm teriminators with multilas.
I mean, really, what do marines do besides fall to chaos and be a dick to everyone in the imperium?
If marines never existed, there'd be no real heresy because it is infinitely easier to mop up traitor guardsmen than say, a black crusade.
All those other "marines save the day" scenarios could probably be replicated by stormtroops of some kind. You'd just have to use a lot more of them.

That's kind of a silly thing to say. Technically, if the Imperium never existed there'd be no real heresy. Hell, if the Emperor never existed there would be no heresy, but that doesn't mean that humanity's situation would be improved.

Each force fills a specific role. The Guard fulfills a role that the Astartes are ill-suited to replace them for, and vice versa.

Lynata wrote:Whilst that is certainly true, it is far easier to make lots of Guard regiments fight alongside each other than Marine Chapters. And I'm not just talking about the difference in numbers there.

Is it? The Marines aren't children, they value duty for the Imperium above all else. About two dozen chapters sent forces to combat Hive Fleet Leviathan, two dozen were also sent to fight in the Third War for Armageddon. A hundred chapters were mobilised in the Macharian Heresy.

Unless I misunderstand you? I was under the impression you were implying that chapters of Space Marines are less likely to fight alongside one another, I apologise if I misunderstood.

Lynata wrote:I would have to disagree here - there isn't any problem that can be solved by Space Marines that would not be likewise solvable by throwing lots and lots of IG bodies at it. And as has been pointed out, the Marines are almost as much a liability as they are an asset (though fortunately Chapters like the Ultramarines and Black Templars currently seem to be more prevalent than those like the Space Wolves or Sons of Horus).

Personally, I'm thinking like terranarc here. The Marines are nice to have, but they are not irreplacable. Though a long "period of adaption" would surely hurt, if (theoretically) Marines would suddenly all drop dead from one day to another. You may even argue that the Imperium could not adapt at all, but the potential is there (see Skitarii, for example). All the resources currently funneled into equipping Marine Chapters that don't bother responding to distress calls half of the time due to considering themselves above Imperial hierarchy or simply because they don't like the guy who called them could just as well be put to use within the Imperial Guard. It'd just take a lot of reorganization.

Why waste thousands of guardsmen on a job a handful of Marines could solve? The Chenkov method is not the practical method, far from it. When you need meltabombs planted inside a Tomb World, you don't have Guardsmen do it. When you need to cut the head off the serpent, you send a squad of Marines to take out the enemy leader. I'm also not exactly sure how you can compare the Space Wolves to the Sons of Horus, I'm far from a fan of the Space Wolves, but their actions have benefited the Imperium, they have an impressive amount of victories under their belts and are an asset on the battlefield. While they are savage, heretical, and rebellious barbarians, they aren't on the same level as the Legion which brought the Imperium to its knees, lol. Oh, and more guardsmen have falled to Chaos than Space Marines. The Chaos Marines may be the face of the mortal slaves of Chaos, but they are nowhere near as numerous as the normal humans serving them, counting numerous corrupted guardsmen among them.

What makes you believe that Space Marines don't respond to distress calls half of the time? When has the fluff ever made such a claim? The only chapter which regularly will ignore distress calls to my recollection is the Dark Angels, and even then that's usually due to them pursuing a Fallen, normally they respond. You yourself expressed belief just now that it is good that the Ultramarines are more common than individuals such as the Space Wolves, most chapters are descended from Ultramarines and are similar.

Guardsmen just aren't always up to the task, specifically shock tactics which the Space Marines are used for, precise, deciding stabs at enemy vitals to cripple the enemy force while the guardsmen engage the bulk of the force. The Space Marines and Guardsmen rely on eachother, sure, the Imperium wouldn't all of the sudden explode if all Space Marines dropped dead, but they'd be at a disadvantage without them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

terranarc wrote:Without marines you'd have stormtroopers in terminator armor. Can't say I dislike the idea of storm teriminators with multilas.
I mean, really, what do marines do besides fall to chaos and be a dick to everyone in the imperium?
If marines never existed, there'd be no real heresy because it is infinitely easier to mop up traitor guardsmen than say, a black crusade.
All those other "marines save the day" scenarios could probably be replicated by stormtroops of some kind. You'd just have to use a lot more of them.

You mean besides give their lives doing the most dangerous and difficult tasks that the Imperium needs doing?

Storm Troopers can't even ride in Drop Pods, which is pretty much essential for how Marines operate for the most part. And they die just as easily as a normal guardsmen to a swarm of Orks are Tyranids.

Ultramar would have fallen were it not for the Marines, for example. As would have Armageddon for example, in at least the first two wars, it was the Grey Knights who defeated Angron and his host of Bloodthirster bodyguards, and ultimately what Yarrick really did was buy time for the Marines to show up.

But space marines are cool :p

The imperial gaurd are like the army, whereas the marines are like the navy seals. Sort of.
If you read fluff, marines are usually sent to high priority targets and large threats whereas the IG are the bulk of the army.
There are many times when the IG just wont cut it, such as in large incasion like the battle of maccrage.

spudkins wrote:But space marines are cool

I think this ends the discussion.

That and the fact that Space Marines are a necesity. They are the best warriors the Imperium has to offer. The lost of them would mean the downfall of hundreds of worlds.

Seriously? That's like asking if the US doesn't need the Marines.

Chowderhead wrote:
Seriously? That's like asking if the US doesn't need the Marines.

That is totally different thing, marines are more standard army then finest of US warriors.

The Marines are like the Space Marines, and the Enlisted are like Guardsmen.

Brother Coa wrote:Do Imperium really need Space Marines?

I noticed some people saying that the Guard and others are doing the job just fine without them. Do that mean that Imperium don't longer need them?

If you actually take the numbers GW puts out for the relative value of a Space Marine (1 SM for every 10-12 normal soldiers per Codex: Space Marines) and the number of Imperial Guard regiments currently active (given as plural "billions" in Codex: Imperial Guard) and an average regiment size of 8,000 (using the Cadian 8th as a standard), then the total fighting strength of the Adeptus Astartes is equal to about 1/16,000,000th of the fighting capability of the Imperial Guard if we assume "billions" of regiments simply means 2 billion (the lowest possible value for the plural "billions" given in Codex: Imperial Guard).

Even if we exaggerate the SM's value by say, 10,000x (lets say there are force multipliers such as rapid speed and other capabilities we aren't taking into account that the IG can't replicate as readily and aren't already taken into account by the 10/12-1 ratio and no force multipliers are taken into account for the IG at all) then the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes is still only about 1/1,600 that of the Imperial Guard.


In other words, GW has made the Imperial Guard so large (yet likely accurate given a million worlds) that the Space Marines really would be completely insignificant by any meaningful measure. The IG's daily casualty/recruitment rates are probably of more military value. Realistically, the entirety of the Astartes would be insufficient for the defense or conquest of a single world opposed by a a number of soldiers roughly equal to that of the number of soldiers under arms on Earth today (assuming trained/equipped to Imperial Guard standards), with a modicum of Imperial Navy equivalent support, assuming the ratio given in every Codex: Space Marines of 10/12 normal soldiers for 1 Space Marine.

Indeed using the ratios of 10 or 12 guardsmen for each Space Marine, the entirety of the Space Marines would have been destroyed in the Vraks campaign (Imperial Armour V/VI/VIII) given the casualty ratios (and about a third of the Dark Angels Chapter was lost on Vraks in a single mission there).

And lets face it, even if they can't replicate the exact same capabilities, the Imperial Guard has more than enough quantify of "inferior" units possessing similar capabilities (e.g. Drop Troops, siege regiments, armored regiments, etc) to more than offset that what the Space Marines offer even if they were only the tiniest fraction of the IG's available troops (which they aren't necessarily).



This is why the concept of only a million Space Marines is somewhat ludicrous. Merely a million Space Marines, even possessing the capabilities they have, would literally be a meaningless galactic military force.