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4E “Squatting”

This is not a “Rant” against any edition in the normal way. I Love 4th edition, and like the essentials. With all of the changers WotC have been going though. The stopping of supporting 4e to concentrate on “4.5” I am now having problems getting back into my D&D Game. [We were taking a break because my mom passed away and one of our players was tacking some classes on out normal game day].
I have been running a Modern/Horror Game in that time period and have been enjoying immensely. Now that it is getting close to getting back to the D&D game, I don’t want to do it. It is a combination of what WotC has done and I am just not that interested right now.
I have played D&D since 1981 and am familiar with all of the editions. I even liked 3.0/3.5 and Like Pathfinder. I am not sure I can go back to them; there are just too many problems with them as a player. Most of my group wants to play D&D and I don’t.
So basically what I am looking for is advice, I am currently planning on having a Meeting to talk to the group and I don’t want to “Rant” at them, I want to talk to them.

Thank you for your time
Anpu42
=0o0=

It makes me sad when I look on amazon and I don't see anything I haven't seen before on there. Something I did with my group is ask them to look around for a game/system that they would like to try out and give it a shot. Honesty goes a long way when telling people how you feel about the game.

There isn't a 4.5... There's Essentials, which offers different options, but it's still the same base rules.

In some cases there's two versions of a class, band you may want to look at which fits a character concept better, but they're still both valid.

OTOH, a somewhat valid complaint is that 4.0 is very errata-heavy due to the use of DDI as a source for patches.

Balance wrote:There isn't a 4.5... There's Essentials, which offers different options, but it's still the same base rules.

In some cases there's two versions of a class, band you may want to look at which fits a character concept better, but they're still both valid.

OTOH, a somewhat valid complaint is that 4.0 is very errata-heavy due to the use of DDI as a source for patches.

Those arent as much of the problem as all of the behined the scene going on at WotC.
It not the System I love 4.0 and I like Essentials/"4.5" or whatever everyone calls it now.

It is just they droped what I Love to concentrate for what I like and now my group is waiting for me to start my 4e campain back up and I realy don't want to at the moment.
So I was hopping to get some advice on how I should handle this.

Forgive my thickness but I'm missing something. What is wrong with wotc again?

Also, I don't get your reasoning behind 3.5 being broken? I mean, I know Druids get crazy powerful at high levels, but mages in general are kind of that way. Most broken things can be fixed by the DM anyways.

Necroshea wrote:Forgive my thickness but I'm missing something. What is wrong with WotC again?

1] They are starting to get a lot like GW
They bring out everything on PDF for purchase and the when some of the stuff starts to get pirated they attack the distributors and the players, pick up there toys and go home
They bring out DDI and a Free Character builders and then pull a bait and switch, get up hooked and then start to charge to do anything online.
2] Essentials: I like what they did with it I think that should have been 4e and what they brought out should be 4.5. that is not my problem it is there here is essentials, deal with it, oh the other 3 years of stuff, sorry waited your money on it, to bad-so sad, deal with it.

Also, I don't get your reasoning behind 3.5 being broken? I mean, I know Druids get crazy powerful at high levels, but mages in general are kind of that way. Most broken things can be fixed by the DM anyways.

There is nothing wrong with 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder IF I repeat IF your DM takes control of the game and says no on occasion. I did not play the last three years of 3rd, because two of us were writing up Sharper the Wizard/Thief, who happened to be 12th and traveling with 12th Level Wizard who could do 4 60 point touch attack Shocking Grasp in two rounds who happened to be named Zara.
The GM had no control over the players and those of us who were writing up reasonable characters who were well rounded most of the group were writing up killing machines. And when we asked them to pull back a little they would reply “Why shouldn’t we do it its legal,

This is not about 3.0/3.5/4.0/4.5/Pathfinder its about my group wants to play D&D and right now I don’t want to, I would like to care, but I don’t. This normally would not be a problem, but I am the GM and we play at my House, they have no place to play and the LFGS just closed its door.

Im sorry, but why exactly dont you want to play again? Dont think ive really read a reason as of yet, other than you dont like what has happened with Essentials.....

Apologies if ive missed it...

So, the center of your complaints seems focused around the corporate business model, and then needing a strong DM to cut back on player abuses, right?

Most tabletop systems I've played require a strong DM. Have you tried any of the White Wolf systems? They're about as bad, just in different ways.

As far as the company goes, play the game, not the company.

I think the thing to do here is to be a good GM - give the gamers what they want. If you appease them now, they'll be more open to what you'd like to do in the future. If they wand D&D, give them D&D. After a few months, begin slipping in hints of another game they'd maybe like to try, as a bit of 'something new'.

The thing with Tabletop RPGs is that you can use whatever rules you want. Want to play 1st Ed D&D? Totally fine. So pick and choose what you want in the game. My advice for core products would be the DM's Guide, the Essentials Monster Vault, and whatever 4th Ed PHBs you need to play.

Also, as the GM, you're in control. They may want to play in the D&D system, but you'll be the one setting the scene. If you want, make it a Horror game in a Fantasy setting.

Well first , thanks for all of the advice so far. this has been one of those problems that the more more it is discused, the more you relise what the problem is.

infinite_array wrote:I think the thing to do here is to be a good GM - give the gamers what they want. If you appease them now, they'll be more open to what you'd like to do in the future. If they wand D&D, give them D&D. After a few months, begin slipping in hints of another game they'd maybe like to try, as a bit of 'something new'.

I have been doing this for dacades [late 80's]. It has more or less worked. I try to be the Good GM and try to put my players first.
My GM pollicy has been "If some one did not have a good time, I have failed at my job."
Recently if have been failing me with FRPGs.

Anpu42 wrote:I have played D&D since 1981 and am familiar with all of the editions. I even liked 3.0/3.5 and Like Pathfinder. I am not sure I can go back to them; there are just too many problems with them as a player. Most of my group wants to play D&D and I don’t.

From the point of view of a lifelong DM I can understand where you're coming from. Coming up with an adventure or campaign can be a time-consuming process, and doing this for a game that you're not excited to play could really be a bummer. One thing I've done is actually gone back and broke out my old 2E stuff and converted some of that to be usable in 3.5. I thought it was fun writing a campaign with these monsters, races and classes that I hadn't even though about for nearly a decade, and my players agreed.

I never understood the "problems" of 3.5 though. I thought it was fine as a base and I'd tweak the stuff that was silly or overly complicated.

Anpu42 wrote:This is not a “Rant” against any edition in the normal way. I Love 4th edition, and like the essentials. With all of the changers WotC have been going though. The stopping of supporting 4e to concentrate on “4.5” I am now having problems getting back into my D&D Game. [We were taking a break because my mom passed away and one of our players was tacking some classes on out normal game day].
I have been running a Modern/Horror Game in that time period and have been enjoying immensely. Now that it is getting close to getting back to the D&D game, I don’t want to do it. It is a combination of what WotC has done and I am just not that interested right now.
I have played D&D since 1981 and am familiar with all of the editions. I even liked 3.0/3.5 and Like Pathfinder. I am not sure I can go back to them; there are just too many problems with them as a player. Most of my group wants to play D&D and I don’t.
So basically what I am looking for is advice, I am currently planning on having a Meeting to talk to the group and I don’t want to “Rant” at them, I want to talk to them.

You have 3 options:

1) Don't run D&D and convince your players who really want to play it that they really don't.
2) Suck it up and run it anyway. If you had all the things you needed to run 4.0 before your break how has that changed now?? You should still have all the same resources you had before just not as much new junk to gum up the works. This one also has the benefit of your players being happy.
3) Let someone else GM D&D if you aren't feeling it. No rule says one person has to be the GM all the time. Heck in our group that role shifts between 5 different people as we go along.

#3 is probably your best bet as it will let you get back to your roots as a player too. I highly recommend against #1 and #2 might not be fun for the players if your heart isn't in it.

No reasons to rant at your group no matter what. Just say you aren't feeling it, and would someone else like to take over for a while and throw down with some D&D action. Who cares what WotC is or isn't doing. They have no control over your personal library and what it already contains.

Skriker

I'm going to take a wild shot in the dark here but it sounds like you run with power gamers. I generally avoid those types.

Necroshea wrote:I'm going to take a wild shot in the dark here but it sounds like you run with power gamers. I generally avoid those types.

only 2/3 of them are

Necroshea wrote:Forgive my thickness but I'm missing something. What is wrong with wotc again?

Also, I don't get your reasoning behind 3.5 being broken? I mean, I know Druids get crazy powerful at high levels, but mages in general are kind of that way. Most broken things can be fixed by the DM anyways.

With the amount of DM fiat you need to put melee on an fair playing field with casters, at that point you've basically said "Screw the rules" and invented a whole new game*.


*not necessarily a bad thing.

Chongara wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Forgive my thickness but I'm missing something. What is wrong with wotc again?

Also, I don't get your reasoning behind 3.5 being broken? I mean, I know Druids get crazy powerful at high levels, but mages in general are kind of that way. Most broken things can be fixed by the DM anyways.

With the amount of DM fiat you need to put melee on an fair playing field with casters, at that point you've basically said "Screw the rules" and invented a whole new game*.


*not necessarily a bad thing.

it can be whin the DM has a 2" binder of house rules all in the "name of ballance"

Sounds like the key issue here is DM motivation, or player/DM game interest mismatch.

The group wants to play D&D, but right now you're not feeling enthused about/inspired by D&D. You've been really enjoying running this side game with the different setting and rules while you've been on break. Did I get that right?

If so, I guess it really comes down to agreeing among yourselves as a group what you want to do. I agree that a good DM does deliberately cater to what his players want, but OTOH you're not a slave/paid entertainer either; you're investing a substantial amount of work to run the thing, which means it needs to be fun for you too. It would be unreasonable (IMO) for the group to expect you to run a game you're not interested in.

How are they enjoying the Modern/Horror game? If they're really into it too, it probably wouldn't be too hard to agree to continue that for a while, and get back to D&D once you're missing it and feeling inspired by it again. If OTOH they're not really into the Modern/Horror thing, and have just been going along with it, then maybe the better move is to discontinue that and either try a third game, or start looking for some new ideas/setting/concepts to use in D&D to get yourself excited by it again.

Are you just burned out on running? Perhaps you need to play.

Ogiwan wrote:Are you just burned out on running? Perhaps you need to play.

Running dnd yes
my Moder game no

I think i will spend some time playing in the future i hope

I definately suggest switching up DM's and trying some alternate systems also just to bring variety. Palladium, Dark Heresy, Paranoia, Call of Cthultu (A personal favorite) all might give your group something different to try out and will freshen up what you're doing. I've never found the "rules" to be the important part as much as a good story, DM, and party all interested in RP over combat.

While Palladium games holds a special nostalgia spot in my heart as my first RPG system, it may not be a good suggestion for the OP who thought even D&D 3.5 wasn't honed enough after 4e. Palladium games generally play as if you're using a core binder from 1985 with 25 years of additional post it notes rules glued to various pages, doubling its weight.

warboss wrote:While Palladium games holds a special nostalgia spot in my heart as my first RPG system, it may not be a good suggestion for the OP who thought even D&D 3.5 wasn't honed enough after 4e. Palladium games generally play as if you're using a core binder from 1985 with 25 years of additional post it notes rules glued to various pages, doubling its weight.

Definitely have to agree here. Especially if you play Rifts...there is just so much tacked on everywhere it just gets crazy. About the only thing I really like that Palladium has done is their alignment system. It really is well defined for player use and really takes away the confused questions that used to show up with the old AD&D 9 part table that never really explained itself at all.

Skriker

Just wondering has the OP tried Exalted?

I once played with a group that alternated between D&D and either UA or Exalted whenever they got sick of D&D, they used a rotation system for their DMs and it just so happened that the powergamers were different each of the 3 systems.