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Shouldn't CSM be better than loyalist marines?

The CSM who have been fighting the Long War have original gene seed (10,000 years of reuse and harvesting will have an effect on the potency of 'newer' marines?)

They have 10,000 years of combat experience.

They have, in many cases, chaotic 'enhancements'.

So I would have thought the stat line of a basic CSM should be at least the same as a loyalist veteran?

Anyone agree?

1st Not all CSM are from the original Legions. Most in fact are Marines that have been turned since then.
2nd CSM do have certain things on their side but they do lose many benefits by turning traitor. Foremost among them are the logistical might of the Imperium, the technology and support of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and most importantly the loss of the psycho indoctination and faith in the Imperial Creed that gives normal marines rules like And They Shall Know No Fear.

The best way to look at it is that CSM basic marines are not quite up to par with their rivals, but that once they earn gifts of chaos and start getting those chaotic bitz and 'enhancements' then they start becoming beast Chaos Lords and Chaos Daemon Princes. Aka hard for any other race to match in their specialty.

No. Because it's 10.000 years for us and maybe 1000 for them.
They have equipment 10.000 years old while Loyalist Space Marines have new updated equipment.
CSM lack discipline and would rather charge and kill anything it can touch then use strategies.
Most CSM fight against each other ( just see World Eaters, Sons of Horus and Emperor's Children ).
And large number of them now are Marines that fallen in recent years ( like Astral Claws ).

doc21 wrote:So I would have thought the stat line of a basic CSM should be at least the same as a loyalist veteran?

Many may not have ten thousand years of combat experience (even most Astartes will struggle to survive that long a period of combat), especially when considering that the Warp may affect how time passes - a Chaos Marine could have listened less than a Loyalist Marine. As said, inferior technology will be a factor. You'd also have the fact that most Chaos Marines who have a significant period of experience after the Great Crusade will likely have diverted from their original causes, and be more inclined to selfish goals - the teamwork and self-sacriface could easily be lost to an extent.

That and balance as well as gameplay.

doc21 wrote:Shouldn't CSM be better than loyalist marines?

Why?
Because they got a C before SM?

doc21 wrote:The CSM who have been fighting the Long War have original gene seed (10,000 years of reuse and harvesting will have an effect on the potency of 'newer' marines?)

GW put some effort to install the concept of renegades, newly turned space marines to replenish the depleted numbers of the minions of chaos. Until they split the fluff and codex, every CSM has the same "potency" of geneseed.
OR they suffer from a burnout syndrome...after all a long war....

doc21 wrote:They have 10,000 years of combat experience.

This is stated where?
Some have fought in the great crusade, but they didn't live through the millenia. Time in the warp runs differently than in realspace.

doc21 wrote:They have, in many cases, chaotic 'enhancements'.

Enhancements that may or may not enhance. spawndom may await them at the end....

doc21 wrote:So I would have thought the stat line of a basic CSM should be at least the same as a loyalist veteran?

Stat lines are based on game rules, so if you want them expensive this could happen. Think of extreme low bodycount armies...
then consider all the heavy weapons aimed at them....

The definition of the "basic" CSM is key.
So what is this basic CSM of yours?

doc21 wrote:Anyone agree?

Not me.

doc21 wrote:Shouldn't CSM be better than loyalist marines?

The CSM who have been fighting the Long War have original gene seed (10,000 years of reuse and harvesting will have an effect on the potency of 'newer' marines?)

The Warp doesn't exactly have a great effect on their ability to produce new Marines. It's not so much the quality of the geneseed and more the availability of human children and large stores of it, hence why Chaos Marines have to raid Loyalist forces for their geneseed banks.

They have 10,000 years of combat experience.

Definitely not. To the vast majority of the original marines most will have a few hundred years at best, due to the effects of the Warp on time. That coupled with the fact that many traitors joined recently in their own timelines, or have only recently been created then they maybe have the average experience on par with any loyalist Chapter.

They have, in many cases, chaotic 'enhancements'.

Some my have embraced Chaotic gifts, but it isn't universal.

So I would have thought the stat line of a basic CSM should be at least the same as a loyalist veteran?

Anyone agree?

I don't think so. They should have veterans yes, cheaper veterans to reflect the presence of those that fought during and before the Hersey, but these aren't numerous enough to warrant a universal stat upgrade.
Here's an example. In Blood Reaver, you have the Red Corsairs. They're made up of new Marines, many who have only recently turned to Chaos. They're your average Astartes, just like your regular Tactical Squad. Then you have the Night Lords. They fought during the Great Crusade and the Heresy, only maybe a century or a bit more have passed since they fled Terra, they're veterans, and are a whole lot less numerous.

They should. At least some of them, in fact.

Few existing CSM have lived the full 10 millenia since the Heresy, but many have been around longer than the average loyalist. Time in the Warp and Eye of Terror is fluid: it can move slower OR faster. In fact, it wouldn't be impossible to find some unlucky traitor that has been around for 13k years by his own internal clock!

This used to be represented in the veterancy rules in the 3.5 codex, but that's the past and has been whined about enough.

I do think they could benefit from something a bit like the difference between a Dark Eldar Warrior and a Trueborn.

My point about the potency of geneseed is that according to fluff the geneseed is implanted in aspirants, upon death it is harvested then reused in new aspirants, harvested again in death etc etc.....obviously some changes occur over the millenia - (can't remember the fluff but IIRC some chapters geneseed has irrecoverably broken down - just read in another thread - Flame Falcons and Black Dragons). Original CSM from the traitor legions will have 'pure' geneseed?

Combat experience - again with original legion marines - time, as it's been stated, runs differently in the warp - so they may have had more or less than 10,000 years of experience? - but with the nature of chaos, infighting, combat between rival gods/warbands/raids etc, would it be unreasonable to assume a CSM would have more combat experience than a generic 'modern' loyalist marine?

I'm not trying to cause an argument, just curious

Actually in 3rd Edition they were better. They had "Veteran Skills" to represent the fact that they were 10,000 year old mutants. I miss those days.

doc21 wrote:My point about the potency of geneseed is that according to fluff the geneseed is implanted in aspirants, upon death it is harvested then reused in new aspirants, harvested again in death etc etc.....obviously some changes occur over the millenia - (can't remember the fluff but IIRC some chapters geneseed has irrecoverably broken down). Original CSM from the traitor legions will have 'pure' geneseed?

Perhaps, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it will improve their attributes. As has been said, pure geneseed isn't available in copious amounts, and the aspirants may not be pure to begin with.

Combat experience - again with original legion marines - time, as it's been stated, runs differently in the warp - so they may have had more or less than 10,000 years of experience? - but with the nature of chaos, infighting, combat between rival gods/warbands/raids etc, would it be unreasonable to assume a CSM would have more combat experience than a generic 'modern' loyalist marine

I'm not trying to cause an argument, just curious

The bog standard Chaos Legionnaire perhaps would be more experienced, on the level of their loyalist veteran counterparts, but they generally don't make up the bulk of a Chaos Marine force. I doubt that any would have fought for more than 10,000 years, if so, they'd be spawn or insane to the point that they'd be a handicap. Or they would have just died after a few thousand years or fighting and being exposed to Warp Corruption. Saying that I do agree that the next Codex needs some unit or upgrade to represent those that fought before and during the Heresy.

Apart from the Emperor and Bjorn the fell handed - are there any loyalists who still survive from the heresy?

doc21 wrote:Apart from the Emperor and Bjorn the fell handed - are there any loyalists who still survive from the heresy?

Other than some possibly alive Primarchs and Custodes, no, there are none other than them. It's due to the time dilation effects of the Warp.

doc21 wrote:My point about the potency of geneseed is that according to fluff the geneseed is implanted in aspirants, upon death it is harvested then reused in new aspirants, harvested again in death etc etc.....obviously some changes occur over the millenia - (can't remember the fluff but IIRC some chapters geneseed has irrecoverably broken down - just read in another thread - Flame Falcons and Black Dragons). Original CSM from the traitor legions will have 'pure' geneseed?

Combat experience - again with original legion marines - time, as it's been stated, runs differently in the warp - so they may have had more or less than 10,000 years of experience? - but with the nature of chaos, infighting, combat between rival gods/warbands/raids etc, would it be unreasonable to assume a CSM would have more combat experience than a generic 'modern' loyalist marine?

I'm not trying to cause an argument, just curious

I don't wholly disagree with your logic, but solely for the sake of finding an in-universe justification for the status quo, I shall endeavour to do so.

The effects of the purity or impurity of geneseed are poorly-explained in the fluff. To the best of my knowledge, all one can confidently say is that mutating geneseed would affect a chapter's ability to replace its losses, or, in extreme cases, lead to the loss of particular enhancements, not reduce the fighting effectiveness of its Astartes - these problems, however, seem to be the exception, rather than the rule among the loyalists.

As to the traitor legions' greater experience, the best hand-waving logic I can think of would be either that the traitors, as a rule, might well no longer train, study and trust their brothers as the loyalists can, or that there is simply a limit to how much benefit training can apply - veteran marines, loyalist or traitor, are not only exceptionally experienced but exceptional individuals capable of applying their centuries of experience.

As an interesting aside, I recall from the Heresy novels that the original, Terran legions, before they found their primarchs, felt an unaccountable pain at their absence. One wonders if the Marines of the 41st millennium feel the same thing?