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Best Value (Points Wise) Long Range Anti av12 in IG codex?

Ummm, the Vendetta without a doubt!

Can basically get 2 x Hydra quadcannon tanks instead of a vendetta. Its 20 pts more, bit gets a good load of str 7 (so penetrating on a 6). Theres a pretty good chance to at least glance with the volume of twin-linked shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That or get a 3 man missile heavy weapon team using 'take it down' order. Only 105 pts!

3 autocannon team is better than missiles. One less strength but extra shot.

I'd prefer the missiles:
1. ap3
2. 16% better chance for penetration on av12, where as stated earlier str7 really doesnt do very well
3. Can use frag for some decent horde control
4. Str8 Insta-pops most characters. One lucky missile beats the damage of all 6 autocannon shots hitting a tough character etc

I think people here on dakka are too obsessed with 'light vehicles' and ive noticed people going bonkers with autocannons. Sure take a few, but maybe mix it up a little?

Vendetta no doubt 3 TL lascannons are better than Heavy weapons teams

kyranzor, if you do the math, 3 autocannons will get the same amount of pens on average as 3 missile launchers. They will also get twice as many glances. Against hordes, autocannons do decent damage as well. The only thing missile launchers are better for is TMCs. S8 vs characters is not worth discussing, if someone has their SM captain running around in the open without a unit, you don't need to ID him to beat the guy, he obviously doesn't know what he's doing.

Vendetta. Hands down. 3x TL Lascannons on a fast skimmer blows any other option out of the matter in terms of sheer competitiveness.

Granted, a vendetta doesn't fit in every list type, but its the best bang for your buck.

What do/would I use?

Primary -

Autocannon HWS with bring it down orders. Advantages? At 75pts a unit, I don't mind it taking out a target then dieing. Usually gets a few kills of transports and wounds on MC's. Autocannons are useful in many area's if your opponant didn't bring much AV12. Disadvantages? Very fragile unit. Bring it down relies on leadership 7 (I use Creed + Kell if I take a lot of them to offset this)

Lascannon HWS. Depending on whether theres something nasty inside said AV12. Twin-linked helps again. Advantages? Disadvantages? Same as the Autocannon HWS but with extra strength and extra cost. Does draw more fire.

Manticore hehe. Transports are always high on my priority list and this is my best friend against vehicles. Adavantages? Superior range and power. AV12 and manouverable. Reliable Anti-tank. Additional pie plates could hit several other targets per shot. Disadvantages? not many, 160pts is a fair price for such a piece of kit. The four shot limit doesn't really make much difference but having a few other AV12 crackers just in case wouldn't be the worst call you could make.

Hydra Autocannons (If I owned them) As cheap as the HWS at 75pts but gets four twin-linked shots instead of 6 with the HWS (Which may or may not become twin-linked). Advantages? AV12 spam of your own. Extra range at 72''. Extra protection and movement. Good against skimmers. Disadvantages? Possibility of less shots than the HWS? Not really got much weakness for the price tag. A solid little piece.

Secondary -

Battle cannon ^.^ 8 strength, pick the highest of two D6, and.....if you take the hull lascannon and fire that first, you get the chance to crack it open and then battle cannon the contents instead. Its survivable and multipurpose. Advantages? Lots of range, can flex up to the role, doesn't require taking just for cracking av12. Disadvantages? High ammount of prime targets make battle cannons a valuable gun. Usually put to better effect elsewhere but its available in a pinch.

Vendetta - Lascannons work well. Twin-linked ones work even better. Adavantages? Movement, protection, troop transport for added flexibility. Disadvantages? High above the board and draws a substantial ammount of fire (offset with the obscured cover save but requires carful gameplay)

At a stretch (ones rarely fielded for this role) -

Master of ordnance (It's Possible lol)
Executioner (Medium range but plenty of firepower. More of a MEQ killer, guns would be better used on infantry)
Exterminator (Lacks firepower for price in my opinion but some people like it)
Medusa (Would work but has a few draw backs like LOS coupled with AV12)
Basilisk (Not a bad tool for the job but not the most efficient)
Deathstrike? (Lol ok i'll stop the list here =p)

Deceiver wrote:
Battle cannon ^.^ 8 strength, pick the highest of two D6, and.....if you take the hull lascannon and fire that first, you get the chance to crack it open and then battle cannon the contents instead.

Unless the LRBT has a special rule to allow it to fire its weapons at different times (edit: which I'm quite certain they don't), you must fire all of a unit's weapons at the same time, making this tactic against the rules.

I would submit that Deceiver's opinion should be discarded as weak. In addition to obviously having a weak grasp of the game's rules, his suggestion of HWSs demonstrates a lack of competitive experience.

Hydras and Vendettas are the clear best option for long range anti-vehicle firepower.

I can't believe people are suggesting autocannons for anti-av12. you want to destroy that gak, not piss it off.

vendetta's (for reasons already outlined by others), lascannon HWS (if you're a platoon kinda guy), and maybe basilisks. Any tank other than the executioner and punisher.

Hell, read through the weapons list at the back of the codex, find anything s8 or more with >=36" range, and take a lot of it.

Dracos wrote:

Deceiver wrote:
Battle cannon ^.^ 8 strength, pick the highest of two D6, and.....if you take the hull lascannon and fire that first, you get the chance to crack it open and then battle cannon the contents instead.

Unless the LRBT has a special rule to allow it to fire its weapons at different times (edit: which I'm quite certain they don't), you must fire all of a unit's weapons at the same time, making this tactic against the rules.

I would submit that Deceiver's opinion should be discarded as weak. In addition to obviously having a weak grasp of the game's rules, his suggestion of HWSs demonstrates a lack of competitive experience.

Hydras and Vendettas are the clear best option for long range anti-vehicle firepower.

There is nothing wrong with HWS's. They put out a high volume of concentrated fire for a good price. Plus as for the dice rolling, I know more than a handful of players who run through the weapons as opposed to using different coloured dice in friendly enviroments without question.

Btw, vendettas are not the answer to all AV12 platforms as they arn't as effective point per point against your target. Most guard mech lists will have two chimera to each vendetta. A combination of concentrated firepower and some flexible options like the hydra of battle tank make a well rounded list.

HWS require you to use platoons, which are generally inferior to vets. You have to consider the PCS as a cost as a prerequisite for the HWS, which in the standard chim/vet mech guard is a waste of points.

Additionally, any house rules you have adapted in your play group are largely irrelevant to a general discussion on uses of units. If my playgroup house rules that HWS have no cost that does not help anyone not playing in my playgroup, so you should really just leave house rules out of the discussion.

Vendettas are a great answer to AV12 platforms. They have a high chance of stopping one every turn from up to 48" away, and can easily gain flank shots on chimeras dramatically increasing those odds.

Don't get me wrong, I advocate hydras too. I think they are great for their cost. As a DE player myself I fear them. Advocating LRBT as a good anti-vehicle platform is incorrect due to its high cost, low shot count, and mediocre hit rate.

I can't stress enough how much my answer is directed only to the question of long range anti-vehicle, which is the hydra and the vendetta.

How has this thread gotten so long? The Vendetta is the answer. For killing AV12-13, it's the tops. For lower or higher, look elsewhere.

Hydras or Vendettas.

Dracos wrote:HWS require you to use platoons, which are generally inferior to vets. You have to consider the PCS as a cost as a prerequisite for the HWS, which in the standard chim/vet mech guard is a waste of points.

Additionally, any house rules you have adapted in your play group are largely irrelevant to a general discussion on uses of units. If my playgroup house rules that HWS have no cost that does not help anyone not playing in my playgroup, so you should really just leave house rules out of the discussion.

Vendettas are a great answer to AV12 platforms. They have a high chance of stopping one every turn from up to 48" away, and can easily gain flank shots on chimeras dramatically increasing those odds.

Don't get me wrong, I advocate hydras too. I think they are great for their cost. As a DE player myself I fear them. Advocating LRBT as a good anti-vehicle platform is incorrect due to its high cost, low shot count, and mediocre hit rate.

I can't stress enough how much my answer is directed only to the question of long range anti-vehicle, which is the hydra and the vendetta.

Agree'd that the HWS has many prerequisites, however competitive guard builds are not always mech. Gun-lines, infantry, artillery and many other builds already meet the requirements to field HWS without setting aside an additional budget. Most players do take a powerblob which would meet the criteria.

I also agree that the vendetta is highly efficient AV12 popper but it depends how you view efficiency. I'd say the autocannon is a highly efficient weapon because it has a prime target but can still function well in many different roles. I havn't worked the math but I don't think its most efficient against AV12 but thats irrevent to my point. The battle tank however is already likely to be fielded or could be worth fielding if it has to play a multi-role function. Taking Vendetta's for the sole purpose of AV12 and then drawing against a list without or very few leaves you at a major disadvantage. The battle tank can still be used proficiently in other area's and in my opinion, that makes an effective unit. Whether you build your own lists with a simmiller philosophy is probably meta based. I know mine is.

A single TL LC has a ~12.56% to destroy AV 12. The vendetta has 3 of these shots.

The TL AC has a ~8.31% to destory AV12. Two hydras has 4 of these shots. (note each AC shoots twice in this calculation)

While you cannot just say 3*12.56 is better than 4*8.31 (37.68 vs 33.24) you can use it as guideline to say the vendetta is slightly (12%) better at destroying AV12.
With the hydras you get a low profile and the ability to ignore cover saves -- a handy trick when shooting fast troops. Hydras are also better vs eldar energy shields.
With the vendettas you get the ability to carry troops and move 6" and shoot. You also gain the ability to outflank and heavier armor.

Both work, the choice is yours.

Your combined % numbers are off, since you can't just add the chance from each weapon. Assuming your initial calculations for destruction odds were correct, the Vendetta has a ~33% chance to destroy a vehicle, where the paired Hydras are roughly ~30%.

Then there are the intangibles, like the Vendettas mobility and greater field of view vs. the hydras' lower profile, ease of getting cover saves and AA system.

Oh, and we forgot to page Ailaros to come tell us that the autocannon is a useless piece of crap and needs 10 turns to kill a rhino.

Omegus wrote:Your combined % numbers are off, since you can't just add the chance from each weapon. Assuming your initial calculations for destruction odds were correct, the Vendetta has a ~33% chance to destroy a vehicle, where the paired Hydras are roughly ~30%.

That's why I said 'While you cannot just say 3*12.56 is better than 4*8.31 (37.68 vs 33.24) '
I made this tool last year that runs a simulation with 100000 shots vs a target. It uses the law of large numbers to give you a solid understanding of a weapon vs an armor.
http://uma-musado.com/cgi-bin/mathHammer.cgi

Omegus wrote:Oh, and we forgot to page Ailaros to come tell us that the autocannon is a useless piece of crap and needs 10 turns to kill a rhino.

LOL. Don't say his name 3 times, hes like Beetlejuice.

Take x3 Vendettas and x6-9 Hydras if you want to be extreme

Cripple entire mech armies in one round of shooting!

But then you can't fit in a pair of Manticores! For reals, isn't 2 hydras, 2 manticores about the most min/maxed use of the heavy support slots? I dare you to find more all-around devastation for under 500 points.

Hydras take this one because they are so cheap and negate cover saves from turbo-boosting. But that's just my opinion.

I would say the vendetta. When you hit with a lascannon you pen 50% of the time rather then the hydras penning 13%