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I really wanted to make a competitive Nid list that fit closer to my perceived view of the bugs through the lore. So I set out to have many small bugs to properly depict the endless tide of chittering claws, as well as a few big bugs in the mix, coupled with a few psychic monstrosities. Ne ways I am looking for any and all criticism as I am trying to tweak it to take to tourneys, and hopefully I have produced a good balance of AI, AT, CC. Here it goes:

- HQ -

2x Hive Tyrant
- Heavy Venom Cannon / Lash Whip & Bonesword
Wings
- 510 Points

- Heavy Support -
2x Tyrannofex
Rupture Cannon
Regeneration
- 590 Points

- Troops -
4x 20x Hormagaunt Squad /w Toxin Sacks
- 640 Points

2x 3 Warriors and 2x Barbed Strangler
Scything Talons & Rending Claws
Adrenal Glands (Im debating giving them poison instead)
-230 Points

- Elites -
2x 3 man squads of Zoanthropes
- 360 Points

1x 3x Hive Guard
- 150 Points


-----------------------------------------------------

Total = 2480 Points

Still 20 Points floating around, and im debating swapping a 3 man zoanthrope squad for 3x more hive guard, but thoughts? Criticism?

Absolutely fits with the lore, and I like the hormagaunts and warriors, however, it seems like you are lacking in the area of the tervigon, maybe drop a hive tyrant? If you don't want to go with a tervigon, maybe a trygon with a group of raveners?

I would go with your idea to get the hive guard over zoanthropes, you will have 50 points floating around for something, like old adversary or some more gaunts

I've personally never had a battle where my zoanthropes outperformed my hive guard except the one time they popped a LR so I might be biased but zoeys have too many damned checks to pass before they do anything useful IMHO

Yar I do believe I will be dropping the zoanthropes down to 1 full squad as I put them in there really to deal with Land Raiders, and some invulnerable saving synapse. Although im not sure by what you mean of them needing to roll a bunch of checks I mean you miss 1/6 of the time (failing physcic test) and past that you have the best AT weapon in the game Str 10 Ap 1 Assault 1 Lance.

Newho what should I do with my remaining 50 points? My two thoughts at the moment are to give poison to both my warrior sqauds, or possibly come up with another 20 points and give both tyrants a 2+ save to make them near impossible to take out, specifically missles at least. My only qualms with this is of course the large amount of Grey Knight opponents one will find in tourneys, and I am not liking the idea of having to spend 6 turns running from 50 some force weapons with my Hive Tyrants, plus my inner competitor does not want me spending so many points just on my HQs, but a 2+ save will be much appreciated against list other than DE and GK's. Neways Ne idea how to spend the last part of my funds.

Whether fluff or pure gameplay, you only really want flyrants where they have fast moving support to cover them - eg gargoyles. if not, then you'd be better sticking them on foot with tyrant guard. If they move their full flying distance on their own they will be shot to pieces at 2,500 points.

3 warriors in a brood is far too small - better off with one brood of 5. They may actually last to get into combat, though I'd still prefer them in a spore as with the zoeys.

Mass gaunts ... prefer a tervigon or two dropping free gants broods out myself as well as some inflitrated stealers.

Tyrannofexes? Not a fan, but agree on running either two of them or none at all. Hope they work out for you.

ruminator wrote:Whether fluff or pure gameplay, you only really want flyrants where they have fast moving support to cover them - eg gargoyles. if not, then you'd be better sticking them on foot with tyrant guard. If they move their full flying distance on their own they will be shot to pieces at 2,500 points.

3 warriors in a brood is far too small - better off with one brood of 5. They may actually last to get into combat, though I'd still prefer them in a spore as with the zoeys.

Mass gaunts ... prefer a tervigon or two dropping free gants broods out myself as well as some infiltrated stealers.

Tyrannofexes? Not a fan, but agree on running either two of them or none at all. Hope they work out for you.

The warriors I actually took as an answer to things such as lootas, or I suppose I took the warriors for the BS. In terms of them in melee I intend for them to reach combat 1 turn after the gaunts and thus guaranteeing the benefit of adrenal glands, but this may be a moot point if I go with poisoned attacks. I may take your advice though and make some more room and make them into 5 man squads to up their viability with my extra points plus a few more cuts.

Gaunts are the only non-negotiable in this list as fluff wise ive never head of any nids that didn't rip you apart and eat you with their claws. Plus I dont like generating kill points for my competitors, although Tervigons make for nasty synapse critters. (If only they have Horvigons )

Thanks for your insight! Anyone else?

The Tyranid Swarm wrote:Yar I do believe I will be dropping the zoanthropes down to 1 full squad as I put them in there really to deal with Land Raiders, and some invulnerable saving synapse. Although im not sure by what you mean of them needing to roll a bunch of checks I mean you miss 1/6 of the time (failing physcic test) and past that you have the best AT weapon in the game Str 10 Ap 1 Assault 1 Lance.

Newho what should I do with my remaining 50 points? My two thoughts at the moment are to give poison to both my warrior sqauds, or possibly come up with another 20 points and give both tyrants a 2+ save to make them near impossible to take out, specifically missles at least. My only qualms with this is of course the large amount of Grey Knight opponents one will find in tourneys, and I am not liking the idea of having to spend 6 turns running from 50 some force weapons with my Hive Tyrants, plus my inner competitor does not want me spending so many points just on my HQs, but a 2+ save will be much appreciated against list other than DE and GK's. Neways Ne idea how to spend the last part of my funds.

You have to pass a psychic test, then if your opponent has a psychic hood you have to roll off, then you need to roll to hit, then you need to roll to pen, then you need to roll damage. Thats 4 to 5 rolls all having the chance for your dice crapping out on you, as mine seems to do often with zoanthropes.

Hm, was unfamiliar with rules for psychic shooting attacks, I was under the impression it already hit, that is alor of dice rolling for something that can wound itself, miss, and only has an 18" range, but after looking into it, it appears you are correct.

Im not quite sure what to do about the Zoans now as Hive guard are certainly as good if not better, and are cheaper. The main problem is ive already bought and painted six of them so it would annoy me to not even field any of them, never mind I liked them fluff wise.

That being said if I ran all hive guards I could have a 2+ save on both Hive Tyrants with the saved points. Thoughts?

uppity

I think Hive Guard are only really better if all you're shooting at is rhinos (modulo Hoods/Rune Priest/Runes of Warding). Already by the time you start seeing AV12, I think you'll be glad of the Zoeys.

One hive guard shot has a 2/9 chance to pen AV12, 2/27 chance to destroy, one zoanthrope shot has a 10/27 chance to pen, 5/54 to glance, 5/27 + 5/(54*6) chance to destroy AV12. So, the chance that a unit of three hive guard will destroy an AV12 vehicle is 1 - (25/27)^6 ≈ 37%, and the chance that a unit of three zoanthropes will destroy an AV12 vehicle on a pen is 1 - (22/27) ≈ 46% - if you include glances it goes up to ≈ 49%. Of course, a rune priest chops the Zoeys' odds in half, and an unmodified psychic hood reduces them by a factor of 21/36 (which Deathleaper can further improve to 26/36, 30/36, or 33/36, depending on "It's after me!" and assuming a single Librarian). Runes of Warding Eldar are a cluster feth for Zoeys, but I think mechdar will are going to have problems hurting you too badly if you're smart about area denying the fire dragons from your T-fexen.

The harder-to-quantify differences between them are this. Range - the extra 6" on the Guard makes a big difference when you're footslogging, and the no-LOS ability on the Guard makes them more survivable on the right kind of table (I have never encountered the right kind of table, but if you play with a lot of BLOS near the middle of the board it will help Hive Guard). In my experience, Hive Guard absolutely melt to Grey Knights shooting, because every unit is packing S7 AP4, and there's always a bunch of S8 AP4 reaching across the board at you. At times like this, I really love the Zoeys' 3++. They Zoeys are also Synapse, which I think you've got covered.

Personally, I always want at least one mycetic spore of Zoeys in my armies. Sometimes you need a suicide unit to shut up those guns across the table and, be they long fangs, a predator, a manticore, a Grey Knights dreadnought (NOT! - Reinforced Aegis ARRRRGGHHH), Zoeys will get the job done. Other times, there's a bunch of AV12 hanging out in the middle of the board, and you can just drop a spore somewhere it can tentacle on somebody's rear armor.

I don't think 2+ on the Tyrants should be a priority. You can hide them behind the Tyrannofexes for cover.

What I'm trying to say with all that mathhammer is this:

Hive guard will help you a lot against AV10/AV11-spam armies with good psychic defense, so Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Grey Knights. AV12 spam with poor psychic defense, namely mech guard, already brings the Zoeys to the fore, expectation-value-hammer-wise anyways. Dark Eldar are a wash (IMO) - because T4/3++ is better for survivability against them than T6/4+ (although cover flips the script).

Mhm I agree with your wall of text (I did read it all), but as you mentioned there is the factor of Hive Guard being able to take part of combat turn 1 regardless of LOS which is a considerable factor. Plus your math does not include the percentage required for the two models to hit which differs due to the 17% chance that the Zoanthrope fails the psychic test.

That being said I am going to play test the list as 2x units of HG and 1x of Zoanthropes, but I am going to run them in a mycetic spore as I really like the x-factor that provides. Depending how much I like it I may switch back to my original plan and run 2x zoanthrope broods in MS. I would definitely have to upgrade a tyrant to a HC to get the outflank/+1 reserve rolls. Thanks for the outside eye as I believe this will improve the list.

I wish Deathleaper could be a HQ instead of an elite, but unfortunately elite slots are too precious in my mind to waste on any 1 model unless your running a smaller point cost battle where they can be a bit more game changing.

What do you guys think of this list? I was moving around some points to see what else I could possibly field and came up with this list:

- HQ -

2x Hive Tyrant
- Heavy Venom Cannon / Lash Whip & Bonesword
Wings
- 510 Points

- Heavy Support -
1x Tyrannofex
Rupture Cannon
Regeneration
- 295Points

2x Carnifex w/ 2x Heavy Venom Cannons
-Adrenal Glands
-390 Points

- Troops -
2x 20x Hormagaunt Squad /w Toxin Sacks
2x 19x Hormagaunt Squad /w Toxin Sacks
- 624 Points

2x 3 Warriors and 2x Barbed Strangler
-200 Points

- Elites -
1x 3 man squads of Zoanthropes
- 180 Points

2x 3x Hive Guard
- 300 Points

-----------------------------------------------------

Total = 2499 Points

Which one do you think is stronger?

Trygons > Carnifex and just as fluffy!

Tomb King wrote:Trygons > Carnifex and just as fluffy!

I did not think for the extra points it would cost to field them they would be worth it since they will be DS in and they have no turn 1 anti-tank ability. My thoughts on the Fex's are they get to ping tanks with a str 9, then when / if they make it up to the tanks they are Str 10 + 2d6 or Str 10 + 1d6 vs Monoliths (Several Necrons at my store), which is superior to the trygon anyways. Realistically he would cost 265 points vs my carnifex's 195 points as I would not take a 6 wound nasty and not give in regeneration. The mass amount of stuns/shaken I can deal out (Never mind destroyed rolls) with 4x HVC shots, 2x Rupture Cannon Shots, and 12x Impaler Cannon shots is scary to think about especially since targeting wise that can be directed at seven different targets some regardless of LOS. This mass stunning alows me to move down the field for what I plan to be mostly unmolested.

Anyone else share his opinions though, maybe I am just stuck on the fact that Fexs are cheaper and have a big gun.

The Tyranid Swarm wrote:

Tomb King wrote:Trygons > Carnifex and just as fluffy!

I did not think for the extra points it would cost to field them they would be worth it since they will be DS in and they have no turn 1 anti-tank ability. My thoughts on the Fex's are they get to ping tanks with a str 9, then when / if they make it up to the tanks they are Str 10 + 2d6 or Str 10 + 1d6 vs Monoliths (Several Necrons at my store), which is superior to the trygon anyways. Realistically he would cost 265 points vs my carnifex's 195 points as I would not take a 6 wound nasty and not give in regeneration. The mass amount of stuns/shaken I can deal out (Never mind destroyed rolls) with 4x HVC shots, 2x Rupture Cannon Shots, and 12x Impaler Cannon shots is scary to think about especially since targeting wise that can be directed at seven different targets some regardless of LOS. This mass stunning alows me to move down the field for what I plan to be mostly unmolested.

Anyone else share his opinions though, maybe I am just stuck on the fact that Fexs are cheaper and have a big gun.

HVC is S9, but the carnifex is only BS3 and you get a minus on the pen charts so not a reliable tank killer. I like fexes with 2 T/L devourers for 12 S 6 shots. Two of these are a reliable transport killer. For heavier stuff you need CC or hive guard/zoanthropes at range, which the list already has. Hence the dakka fexes work pretty well here - also think the points on the tyrannofex could be better spent here.

Personally I don't think 3 warriors in a brood works - they are missile fodder and as soon as they stick their heads up they die in a turn.

Also, I like gargoyles to screen the flyrants.

Drop the tyrannofex and warriors and stick a tervigon in troops. Re-arm the carnifxes is my suggestion.

I have been mulling around what to do with the warriors if I were to drop them, and do of course see your point, but I just am not sure what I would take in their place, gargoyles could work though especially since it adds some survivability for my HTs, and to act as a screen in general. Im going to have to disagree about the fexs though as I stated alls I expect the HVC's to do is stun/shake them to death til I can get close enough to peel them open with MCs/Lance them with thropes/the tyrannofex gets around to them. More than anything they are to keep stuff from shooting at me turns 1-2.

Hm if I drop the warriors I would be in need of some synapse imo, so a tervigon as you stated is a good choice, the only thing being that the idea of having termagants in the army saddens me. I cannot stress enough how much it agitates me that they dont have a tervigon that spawns hormagants... Neways if I were to drop the warriors how would you spend the points? I would take your advice and just replace them with gargoyles, but like I said im worried about synapse.

Looking at synapse. Both flyrants have synapse and with wings will be moving off with the gargoyle screen - so gargoyles have plenty of synapse.

The main army though is foot slogging and so it is maybe tempting to give the second tyrant a tyrant guard and go on foot, this gives a nice synapse bubble. Zoanthropes aren't in a pod so they give synapse as well.

If you want warriors to stay then sit them behind the MCs but I would go with one brood of 4-5 and not two broods of 3. With 40mm bases they take up plenty of space and so have a wide synapse bubble. 5 troop choices will be plenty!

Still like 3 dakka fexes in the HS slots!

Just as a quick note, I did include the psychic test in the mathhammer.

ruminator wrote:Looking at synapse. Both flyrants have synapse and with wings will be moving off with the gargoyle screen - so gargoyles have plenty of synapse.

The main army though is foot slogging and so it is maybe tempting to give the second tyrant a tyrant guard and go on foot, this gives a nice synapse bubble. Zoanthropes aren't in a pod so they give synapse as well.

If you want warriors to stay then sit them behind the MCs but I would go with one brood of 4-5 and not two broods of 3. With 40mm bases they take up plenty of space and so have a wide synapse bubble. 5 troop choices will be plenty!

Still like 3 dakka fexes in the HS slots!

Hmm so working on removing the warriors my list has morphed a little bit. I would run your dakkafexes if they had 24"+ range, but I really feel its important that I be able to either outshoot the opponent (turns 1/2), or if they are a shooty-heavy army to at least be able to prevent some key vehicles from blowing my hordes to pieces. That being said here's what I came up with after I freed up the points from the warriors, and I dropped the tyrannofex after much consideration.

- HQ -

2x Hive Tyrant
- Heavy Venom Cannon / Lash Whip & Bonesword
Wings
- 510 Points


4x Carnifex w/ 4x Heavy Venom Cannons
-Adrenal Glands
-780 Points

- Troops -
4x 20x Hormagaunt Squad /w Toxin Sacks
- 640 Points

- Fast Attack -
15x Gargoyles
- 90 Points

- Elites -
1x 3 man squads of Zoanthropes
- 180 Points

2x 3x Hive Guard
- 300 Points


-----------------------------------------------------

Total = 2500 Points

Should I run 4x Carnifexs or run another 20x poisoned hormagants and fill the gargoyle squad out to 20? or any other ideas in general as to what to do as opposed to a 4th carnifex?

NeutronPoison wrote:Just as a quick note, I did include the psychic test in the mathhammer.

Thanks for the clarification.

*attaches flotation device*

Up.

Hmm. You could run 2 Carnifexes with Stranglethorn Cannons. I would drop the Adrenal Glands though-they're shooting units, and don't really need them.

I might drop a Tyrant for some more Hormagaunts or some Warriors.

Squigsquasher wrote:Hmm. You could run 2 Carnifexes with Stranglethorn Cannons. I would drop the Adrenal Glands though-they're shooting units, and don't really need them.

I might drop a Tyrant for some more Hormagaunts or some Warriors.

The carnifexs are shooting units until they reach the tanks, at which point they are melee but I already depicted that above... Plus I play several Necron players so a Str 10 base attack is nifty to have vs. living metal.

I might drop a tyrant, but I would have to replace it with synapse and warriors are inferior / makes the gargoyle wall unnecessary.

SCs are just weaksauce, so ill stick with HVCs

up

Adrenals on fexes is a bit of a waste tbh.

They are slow, WS3 restricts their CC ability. Difference between S9 and S10 in CC is negligible unless hitting a monlith or land raider. I1 v I2 is again too small to be worthwhile unless vs say pure THSS termies. In both instances, this is very situational ...

SCs are potentially better at what they do than HVCs are at what they do.

SCs are not meant for knocking out mech, they are for hitting/pinning tough infanty units and can do transports at a push. HVC are for tanks etc but that penalty on the damage chart is a real kicker. Against infantry that AP4 really affects it.

Still think best ranged loadout for tyrants and fexes is dual TL devourers - 12 S6 shots each. Low strength and low BS, but weight of shots makes it tell.

When a Carnifex charge it gains +2 (or 3 cant remember) I

ruminator wrote:Adrenals on fexes is a bit of a waste tbh.

They are slow, WS3 restricts their CC ability. Difference between S9 and S10 in CC is negligible unless hitting a monlith or land raider. I1 v I2 is again too small to be worthwhile unless vs say pure THSS termies. In both instances, this is very situational ...

SCs are potentially better at what they do than HVCs are at what they do.

SCs are not meant for knocking out mech, they are for hitting/pinning tough infanty units and can do transports at a push. HVC are for tanks etc but that penalty on the damage chart is a real kicker. Against infantry that AP4 really affects it.

Still think best ranged loadout for tyrants and fexes is dual TL devourers - 12 S6 shots each. Low strength and low BS, but weight of shots makes it tell.

In relation to adrenal glands, as I stated there are several necron players at my store, so the extra 1 strength is very handy. Plus the WS of a carnifex does not matter as its a static table regardless of WS against vehicles.

Also you overlooked living battering ram, so adrenal glands makes the fex initiative 4 versus initiative 3, which will be nice to go simul against MEQ (Although they will be avoiding troops and always moving towards the nearest vehicle if possible).

Not sure why you guys are so hung up on converting the fex's to troop killers as that is not their role. They are my tank hunting nasties that will cause target priority problems. I have hormagants/gargoyles for troop killing, the big bugs are for prying open the cans that their troops are hiding in/behind.

In relation to a BS over a HVC its just a simple matter of the strength 6 large blast will be useless against vehicles mostly, whereas the strength 9 small blast will be somewhat usable against infantry (ID capable as well), so it gains an advantage in my eye in terms of flexibility. Plus like I said I think the thing that kills bugs is turns 1-2 where other armies just whittle down the troops/synapse so that by time you reach them you are not really a threat. By spamming all of the HVC's I more than likely will not destroy anything (though it is possible, especially against Eldar/Dark Eldar), but I WILL keep it from blowing my units to pieces with all of the 1st turn AT shooting capability.

In reference to the devourers, 18" is too short of a range to be any use as by then the battle is already determined for my list, either they have killed enough of my stuff to survive the onslaught, or they havent and they get eaten. Popping a transport or 2 thats 18" away is granted a statistical guarantee almost, but again if all of my little bugs have already been hit with 6-12 battle cannon shots, or a million other possibilities it will not much matter. Like I said previously though if the range was a more practical 24" I would run devourers, but the extra turn of not killing/shaking/stunning anything is simply unacceptable.

When a Carnifex charge it gains +2 (or 3 cant remember) I

Yar its +2

Thanks for the correction

Yar