Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/05 19:17:54
Subject: Competitive (hopefully) Skaven - 3000 points
|
 |
Screamin' Stormboy
|
I have just started to play Skaven (around five games)... and I wanted to know if my list is competitive prior to buying all the models (I have been using my Vampire Counts as proxy).
I believe I have a pretty well rounded team of shooty/magic/hard hitting.
Engineers go into slave groups for additional Ld, Rat Ogres are for flank attacks (Prior games it seemed like I could tarpit really well... but needed additional hitting power).
Jezzails are for heavy calvary/scary units, warp cannons for ranks, and the hellpits = point them in a direction and eat
Let me know what you think!
Lord:
Grey seer: 520
Screaming bell
skalm
Warp energy condenser
Dragonhelm
Hero:
Chiefton: 129
BSB - storm banner
Shield
Halbred
Warlock engineer: 45
Doom rocket
Warlock engineer: 40
Death Globe
Warlock engineer: 15
Core:
39 Slaves: 80
musician
39 Slaves: 80
musician
38 Slaves: 78
musician
40 clan rats: 257
musician, standard bearer, shields
posion wind mortar
47 clan rats: 288.5
musician, standard bearer, shields
posion wind mortar
Special:
6 Rat Ogres: 264
2 packmasters
1 master moulder
6 rat Ogres: 264
2 packmasters
1 master moulder
10 Warplock Jezzails: 200
Rare:
Hellpits x 2: 470
Warp cannons x 3: 270
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 04:20:59
Subject: Competitive (hopefully) Skaven - 3000 points
|
 |
Raging Rat Ogre
colorado
|
Grey seer can't have the dragon helm. He cannot take magic armor, since he has no option for a mundane version. Bell is to taste, but it's a large target, and you don't want it in combat.
BSB needs protection, not a magic banner. Get silvered armor or a good ward for this guy.
I see where you are going with your warlocks, but don't. Their kit is fine, just make them Lv.1 so they can be more than one shot gimmiks. Also leading slaves is bad. You want your slaves to be as throw away as possible.
It's good to see you have a plan with the jezzails, but they are not really worth the points. With BS 3, it's hard to justify the high points they cost.
2 HPA and 3 WLC? Powerful, but unless you just have a WAAC local group you will find yourself running out of people to play, and be known as "That Guy".
I'd drop 1 HPA and 1 WLC for more clanrats. More clanrats will keep 2 castings of dwellers from being an auto-loss for you.
|
Cause the chicks dig it...
2000 (RT era Thousand Sons), 2000 (Undivided), 3000 (demons)
2500 (Skaven), 3000! (Chaos Dwarf), 2500 (Warriors of Chaos)
(RT era World Eaters WIP) |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/07 01:45:24
Subject: Re:Competitive (hopefully) Skaven - 3000 points
|
 |
Screamin' Stormboy
|
Oops on the dragonhelm...
Good idea for the BSB, the list is supposed to be competitive... Why can't I bring the hardhitters?
Why don't you like the jezzails? It would be 20 shots... Of course they would most likely be hitting on 5s... But would wound on 2+ with a 6+ armor save for most heavy Calvary.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/07 02:57:49
Subject: Competitive (hopefully) Skaven - 3000 points
|
 |
Raging Rat Ogre
colorado
|
Well, competitive is to taste really, but there is a deffernce between compeditive, and WAAC. The heavys are fine, very solid rare picks in the skaven army. However, if your opponent's list isn't on the same level, you will totally destroy him. That's fun for about 3 games, then it gets old and you might find yourself not getting in as many games.
But as I said, if that's how your group rolls, your list is pretty good as it stands.
I don't like jazzails for the reasons you pointed out, 5+ to hit and 20 pts each. Yes they will kill knights, but you don't really need to. Cav really struggles to cew through a big block of troops, and you have plenty of those. It takes 15 knights in the flank to disrupt a unit, if they hit you to the front, you are steadfast. It's easier to just grind the knights down with foot troops, than try to shoot them down with the over priced jazzail.
The only knights you really want to shoot are chaos knights, and you have 3 WLC and 2 PWM for that.
The 200 pts could get you 2 more tar pit slave units, or 35ish clanrats with points left over for that needed wizard Lv. on your warlock.
If you already own 20 jazzeils then use them, I know I make it a point to use mine every now and then for as much as they cost.
|
Cause the chicks dig it...
2000 (RT era Thousand Sons), 2000 (Undivided), 3000 (demons)
2500 (Skaven), 3000! (Chaos Dwarf), 2500 (Warriors of Chaos)
(RT era World Eaters WIP) |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/09 04:28:21
Subject: Competitive (hopefully) Skaven - 3000 points
|
 |
Ambitious Space Wolves Initiate
|
Jezzails are a waste, Plague does the exact same thing, better.
Warlock engineers should be given lvl1 otherwise they will be pointless, just give it to the doomrocket fellow. The bell is good, basically a 18 inch bubble of leadership ten, the ward save and the MR make it a tough bitch, just be careful about it.
You should take one Warpfire Thrower, they are just too damn good with slaves. You don't have to randomize anymore if its a unit of slaves and slaves alone(another reason to not but engineers in there). Rat ogres are alright, but in these bigger games they will get eaten up pretty quickly. I prefer taking two Grey Seers at this level because its hilarious having two Thirteenth's one for Plague and one for Ruin.
The warp Energy Condenser isn't a good choice for the seer either, give him a power scroll or power stone. The sneaky dice and the sneaky half cost thirteen cast is always fantastic. A dispel scroll is also a very good thing to have for an oops moment.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/09 04:30:45
10,000
2,000
"Only fools hope to live forever by escaping enemies. Age promises no peace though the spear spares them" |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/09 13:03:47
Subject: Re:Competitive (hopefully) Skaven - 3000 points
|
 |
Screamin' Stormboy
|
Thank you for your replies. If you take the jezzails out and the Ogres it seems like there would not be enough to win battles for break tests. I could always add more clan rats, but it seems like they don't do much damage. What do you use instead of rat ogres/jezzails to win battles (instead of just tarpitting the whole game)?
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/09 13:28:03
Subject: Competitive (hopefully) Skaven - 3000 points
|
 |
Raging Rat Ogre
colorado
|
What you already have: HPA and WLC. Though a plague priest on the furnace in a large unit of plague monks can wreck shop as well.
Clanrats aren't ment to do damage, per say. You tar pit with some slaves, then get a unit of clanrats in the flank, and the opposing unit will lose steadfast, and hopefully break in the following combat.
If you can time it right, let your slaves go pop in your opponents turn, then hit the flank with the clan rats. This keep the enemy from getting free combat res by killing slaves.
|
Cause the chicks dig it...
2000 (RT era Thousand Sons), 2000 (Undivided), 3000 (demons)
2500 (Skaven), 3000! (Chaos Dwarf), 2500 (Warriors of Chaos)
(RT era World Eaters WIP) |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/11 14:59:44
Subject: Re:Competitive (hopefully) Skaven - 3000 points
|
 |
Screamin' Stormboy
|
Ok.... I changed things around a bit based on suggestions.
I wanted to make a hard-hitting unit so.... I made my badass warlord. He will go into the rat ogres unit with Gnawtooth.
The Warlord will give 10 Strength 5 attacks (including mount), stomp, and all successful armour saves (2+) produce another S 4 attack (have the dawnstone so I can reroll all failed armour saves)
The unit together (depending on what I get from Gnawtoth) will send out:
30 S 5 attacks
3 S 4 attacks
Lord: 733
Grey seer: 470
Screaming bell
skalm
Warlord: 263
Rat Ogre Bonebreaker
Shield
warlock-augmented weapon
warpstone armour
Dawnstone
Hero: 174
Chiefton: 129
BSB - storm banner
Shield
Halbred
Warlock engineer: 45
Doom rocket
Core: 773
50 Slaves: 125
musician, shields
50 Slaves: 125
musician, shields
40 clan rats: 257
musician, standard bearer, shields
posion wind mortar
42 clan rats: 266
musician, standard bearer, shields
posion wind mortar
Special: 580
5 Rat Ogres: 316
2 packmasters
skweel Gnawtooth
6 rat Ogres: 264
3 packmasters
Rare: 740
Hell pit aboms x 2: 470
Warp cannons x 3: 270
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/13 10:24:43
Subject: Competitive (hopefully) Skaven - 3000 points
|
 |
Raging Rat Ogre
colorado
|
I like it. You don't see the warlord/bone breaker combo used too much.
The only change I'd make to the list would be to drop the storm banner from your BSB and give him some protective magic items, and to drop squeel. I just don't like what does for the points, and he has to go into the front rank. He just ends up being free combat res for the opponent.
If you really wan the storm banner, drop the screaming bell and use those points, plus what's left over from dropping squeel, and get a unit of storm vermin, with the banner.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/09/13 10:28:56
Cause the chicks dig it...
2000 (RT era Thousand Sons), 2000 (Undivided), 3000 (demons)
2500 (Skaven), 3000! (Chaos Dwarf), 2500 (Warriors of Chaos)
(RT era World Eaters WIP) |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/14 16:00:10
Subject: Competitive (hopefully) Skaven - 3000 points
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Your slave units should cost an extra 2 points each, FYI.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/15 14:54:11
Subject: Competitive (hopefully) Skaven - 3000 points
|
 |
Most Glorious Grey Seer
|
Drop the shields on the slaves. It isn't worth the points. Keep the musician though.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/15 21:12:35
Subject: Re:Competitive (hopefully) Skaven - 3000 points
|
 |
Screamin' Stormboy
|
The reason why I have shields on the slaves is this..... I bought 5 IoB for 100 bucks.... but all of the rats have shields (i want to play as modeled)
I changed the list around a little more. Let me know if this is better (slaves with still have shields :( )
Lord: 733
Grey seer: 470
Screaming bell
skalm
Warlord: 263
Rat Ogre Bonebreaker
Shield
warlock-augmented weapon
warpstone armour
Dawnstone- reroll all armour rolls
Hero: 120
Chiefton: 74
BSB - Enchanted shield, HA,
Tailisman of Preservation
Core: 918
50 Slaves: 125
musician, shields
50 Slaves: 125
musician, shields
50 Slaves: 125
musician, shields
40 clan rats: 249
musician, standard bearer, shields
posion wind mortar
25 Storm Vermin: 295
Banner, shields, musician
Storm banner
posion wind mortar
Special: 480
5 Rat Ogres: 216
2 packmasters
6 rat Ogres: 264
3 packmasters
Rare: 740 3000
Hellpit x 2: 470
Warp cannon x 3: 270
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/15 21:43:27
Subject: Competitive (hopefully) Skaven - 3000 points
|
 |
Evasive Eshin Assassin
|
My two Warptokens*:
- Your Grey Seer would benefit from one or two more magical goodies. A Scroll of some kind (Dispel, Power, or Feedback) would be nice. But get him the Ironcurse Icon for his unit.
- the Warlord is a lot of points, is sorta' protected, and goes in a rather fragile unit. Rat Ogres tear people up on the charge, then die. If you think you can snag 479+pts in a single charge with him and his unit, go for it. I doubt you can, though.
- I'd give the Chieftain a Charmed Shield instead. Minor tweak. Also, I'd give him a halberd. Sure, he loses the armour, but S5 might mean the fight ends fast enough that he survives. No Skaven defense will, on its own, be enough.
- Warlock Engineers: they are awesome. And all this about them needing to be lvl1? No way. 45pts for a large S5 template? Amazing. 65pts to potentially drop a Steam Tank or Anvil of Doom? More specific, but still cool. Ld8 Slaves? Not a big deal for your list; the 18" Ld10 from the Bell helps that.
Get that Doomrocketgineer back in there. If I could field a 3000pt army made up of naught but 66 of these guys, I would. And I'd win. He's the most cost-efficient thing in the game.
Beyond that, I think more than 4 spells is a good idea. I'd rather have one lvl2 than two lvl1's. Warp Lightning just isn't...big enough. Scorch, Death Frenzy, Crack's Call, these are big enough. I usually have one lvl2 with the Rocket and the Wand for three spells and a back-up dispell-er if my Grey Seer messes up for some reason.
- 1 in 6 Parries save. 6 shields cost 3pts. 1 Shield-Slave costs 2.5pts. It ain't worth it ever. Mix in those models from the Clanrat box without shields.
Spears, on the other hand...they're good. I've Blessed a unit of 50-horded Spear-Slaves with Filth and then Death-Frenzied them...let me tell you. They always make back double their points, if not more. As long as the spell goes off. But with Plague and the 13th lurking around the corner...
- I'd increase those Stormvermin to at least 30. They die nearly as fast as Clanrats and cost twice as much.
- one Warpfire Thrower would serve you well. Knock off that Regen. Of course, it's not as awesome as before (hit the Hydra once, hit your own guys 20 times, randomize the hits...oh look, I hit the Hydra 10 times), but that was just silly anyway. A little variety is the key to the Skaven army.
Also, three Weapon Teams and three Cannons with the Stormbanner? If you want the Banner, I'd drop one unit of Clanrats and bulk out the Stormvermin and the other unit. Two Teams should be fine.
- A unit of Gutter Runners with slings and Poisoned Attacks will seldom let you down. 5-7 guys is ideal, in my opinion. Just one unit is usually enough, two is always enough, but sometimes overkill and thus a waste of points. But they need those upgrades to be worthwhile. Melting cannons with poisoned sling-bullets is...weird. But effective.
All-in-all, I'd say you could use s'more magic, and probably a little less in the way of hitting power, honestly. At 3000pts, you'll need enough tar-pitting ability to handle some seriously killy dudes. Another unit of Slaves, some bigger Clanrat/Stormvermin units. That sort of thing.
And just a little dash of trouble-shooting would do you wonders. A Rat Dart (5 giant rats, one packmaster, 23pts for 6 attacks at M6), some Gutter Runners, and some Engineers with their toys should shoot the trouble well enough for you.
*All of this is assuming you want to be as competitive as possible, of course.
|
|
|
 |
 |
|