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I don't even mean in a tournament sense. Two editions of playing nids and its been fairly consistently, gaunts=epic fail and MC/Stealer=disgusting win. Usually the horde is shot to pieces, loses half its numbers and the remainder bounce off guard infantry in assault; in the open. With the latter army, even two or three genestealers can maul a guard squad in my experience. Should GW make them cheaper or give them some sort of special rule? I mean compared to similarly priced guard and orks they're very underwhelming.

BTW by horde I dont mean 40-60 gaunts, thats what I'd call a balanced nid army, i mean half points going on the gribblies so a hundred+ gaunts. I actually once lost to somebody who took an all guardsman army without special or heavy weapons. It was 4th edition so I only took one t7 carnifex and a balanced army; didn't want to be a . Gaunts were a liability if not a point sink for all of the battle and in another match a single command squad with a medic butchered 30 gaunts in cc. Squad of stealers, splat.

Would 3pts termagaunt and 4pts hormagaunt seem right. Maybe bring back Without Number for unupgraded termies. That would give an impetus to destroy the synapse and cripple the nids before they overwhelm you.

BTW: why has my flag turned American?

Tyranids rely on aura buffs quite a lot. Things like Synapse, or Hive Tyrants giving all units with 6" preferred enemy. Tervigons giving all sorts of irrational bonuses to nearby gaunts. Venomthropes giving out cover saves and other assorted nastyness.
Sure the basic gaunts are pretty awful, but once you start stacking a few buffs on your units they start to get quite scary.

So no, you can't take an entire army of termagants and expect them to do anything but die horribly. But well constructed and played lists can turn them into something a little more useful.

My buddy plays a horde nid army, about 100 gaunts/hormaguants in 1500, the rest spent on his tyrants. I struggle to put out enough firepower to stop them, thankfully, when they do finally get to me, they bounce of my marines like nothing.

Arson Fire wrote:Tyranids rely on aura buffs quite a lot. Things like Synapse, or Hive Tyrants giving all units with 6" preferred enemy. Tervigons giving all sorts of irrational bonuses to nearby gaunts. Venomthropes giving out cover saves and other assorted nastyness.
Sure the basic gaunts are pretty awful, but once you start stacking a few buffs on your units they start to get quite scary.

So no, you can't take an entire army of termagants and expect them to do anything but die horribly. But well constructed and played lists can turn them into something a little more useful.

While true, those buffs should be reflected (and are, actually) in the points costs of the units giving the buffs, not the units receiving them, since they obviously won't always receive them.

Gaunts and Gants are pretty overpriced for what they are. Consider - they have the profile of a Guardsman, a worse gun in the case of a Gant and no gun in the case of a Gaunt, though the gaunt can reroll 1's in assault and gains an extra attack. They have the downside of needing synapse babysitting, though being in synapse range is just as much a liability as being outside synapse range. They also have a worse armour save. Gaunts cost more than a Guardsman, and Gants roughly the same, and are worse. Acheiving their goal - being a horde - isn't something they can do and still put in enough hard hitting units to make the army work.

As it is, Gaunts aren't worth their points. Gargoyles are the same price, get both upgrades for half what a Gaunt pays, get better movement, a gun and are better in assault. Without buffs, Gants are laughable for 5 points, which again comes down to Gants shouldn't be paying for upgrades another unit might give them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Toastedandy wrote:My buddy plays a horde nid army, about 100 gaunts/hormaguants in 1500, the rest spent on his tyrants. I struggle to put out enough firepower to stop them, thankfully, when they do finally get to me, they bounce of my marines like nothing.

He seems to be running 500 points short of a 1500 piint game.

[quote=-Loki-

Toastedandy wrote:My buddy plays a horde nid army, about 100 gaunts/hormaguants in 1500, the rest spent on his tyrants. I struggle to put out enough firepower to stop them, thankfully, when they do finally get to me, they bounce of my marines like nothing.

He seems to be running 500 points short of a 1500 piint game.

Arson Fire wrote:Tyranids rely on aura buffs quite a lot. Things like Synapse, or Hive Tyrants giving all units with 6" preferred enemy. Tervigons giving all sorts of irrational bonuses to nearby gaunts. Venomthropes giving out cover saves and other assorted nastyness.
Sure the basic gaunts are pretty awful, but once you start stacking a few buffs on your units they start to get quite scary.

So no, you can't take an entire army of termagants and expect them to do. But well constructed and played lists can turn them into something a little more useful.

Yeh, not ALL gaunts, that definetly would be suicide. Synapse is always a given, just a few warrior squads and a Warrior Prime does the trick for me. (By the way do gaunts provide cover for tyranid warriors, or are they too small.)
True they can get buffs, but guard can still fight on their own vs non power armour fairly well and orks are an outstanding unit for the points you pay. Between mob rule and boss pole Ive never seen my friends orks run and if they get to charge they become extremely deadly vs non power armour. Guard orders come inbuilt with the infantry platoon and can increase both their shots and their ability to make heavy weapons twin linked. Gaunts are a bit like pathfinders n fire warriors, a bad thing made good by another unit, whilst guard n orks are a good thing made better.

Gaunts with FNP and peferred enemy. It'd be worth a try, we're moving up to 1500pts so I could probably afford all those creatures, be good to see how they fare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Loki- wrote:

Gargoyles are the same price, get both upgrades for half what a Gaunt pays, get better movement, a gun and are better in assault. Without buffs, Gants are laughable for 5 points, which again comes down to Gants shouldn't be paying for upgrades another unit might give them.

Yeah, when they brought out the new kit why didn't they give the option of making them troops for a winged hive tyrant. Seems like a no brainer to be able to do a winged army and blood angels can take jump units as troops so there is a precedent. I love gargoyles, usually take twenty of them with toxin sacs and assasinate monstrous creatures. I also get to have a brian blessed moment

I think an all gaunt force is ok if you mean hormagaunts as well and gargoyles. Termagaunts alone won't wash but some devilgaunts and the other gaunts and you are away!

Toastedandy wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:My buddy plays a horde nid army, about 100 gaunts/hormaguants in 1500, the rest spent on his tyrants. I struggle to put out enough firepower to stop them, thankfully, when they do finally get to me, they bounce of my marines like nothing.

He seems to be running 500 points short of a 1500 piint game.

I highlighted it for you.

100 Gaunts is roughly 600 points depending on upgrades. Hive Tyrants with upgrades hit just over 200 points. To hit 1000, he needs either anoter 50 odd gaunts or very, very loaded up Tyrants. Either way, he deserves to lose with a list like that.

Way back in 3rd edition hormagaunts with the correct biomorphs were powerful. Then 4th ed ushered in the MC/stealer era, and modern tyranids is a bit more diverse with hive guard/zoanthropes, tervigons/termagants, stealers, gargoyles, raveners, and the occasional tyrant, tyranid prime, or tyrannofex.

Sadly overall this all adds up to a relatively balanced, though slightly underpowered army. Perhaps 6th edition's core rules changes will put the Tyranids' lack of vehicles at the top of the pile.

Currently the only real reason you want gants/gaunts is termagants for your tervigons to spawn. I would not take hormagaunts, gargoyles do their job so much better.

The biggest gripe really is other codex authors tried as hard as possible to make sure popular older builds worked well in new codices even if they wanted to take it in a new direction. With 5th edition Tyranids, Cruddace basically said 'No, you Tyranid players will play this army that I made, your old stuff that doesn't fit can go in a box'.

-Loki- wrote:The biggest gripe really is other codex authors tried as hard as possible to make sure popular older builds worked well in new codices even if they wanted to take it in a new direction. With 5th edition Tyranids, Cruddace basically said 'No, you Tyranid players will play this army that I made, your old stuff that doesn't fit can go in a box'.

It's true that nidzilla got nerfed to the ground, but it needed it. It really did.

And the 4th ed book sure didn't retain everything from the 3rd ed book.

I didn't say it needed to be as powerful, but there were ways to do it without killing it completely. Running an MC heavy list should be an option for Tyranids that isn't just comedy relief. Especially when they have the gall to say in the codex that its something viable.

-Loki- wrote:I didn't say it needed to be as powerful, but there were ways to do it without killing it completely. Running an MC heavy list should be an option for Tyranids that isn't just comedy relief. Especially when they have the gall to say in the codex that its something viable.

MC heavy nids is totally viable, just take a look at the lists out there. They almost all run tervigons, and most run some amount of tyrants, tyrannofexes, and trygons. Some even run carnifexes, but that is kinda of an advanced technique now instead of a "ha ha my army is 6 carnifexes and you didn't take mechdar".

Two tervigons vs 4 LBT, 3 heavy flamers, tons of lasguns, and an assortment of firepower... No where near enough to stop the living carpet. Seriously, I lost because I was presented with too many things to shoot, two of those things happened to spawn MORE things to shoot.

I think that swarm is still viable, and still pretty strong. The only downside is the large number of models with 3 movement phases (move, fleet, assault) and limited time.

I have been playing tyranids since 2001, and have had much success with them. With about 8000 points available, I have a lot of options, but my core has nearly stayed the same through three editions. It is mostly the heavy and hq that has changed for me.

Even now, I am finishing up a squad of gargoyles for round two of ard boys, and I am sitting with 160 models. This is the second time i have made it to second round with my nids. The older ways still work well, and I laugh at the net lists that everyone swears on, even though I have no issues beating most of them with any of my other armies, or even tyranids.

The last time I took my tyranids, I was sitting at first place with two massacres, and then on the final mission, we only made it to third turn (on his part but I didn't get to take my turn) when time was called. He was playing orks, with the same number of models. If I would have gotten to finish my turn, I had 4 units of gaunts set to assault and two tyrants To back them up. Since I didn't get any vp from the mission, I ended up dropping down to 7th.

Horde is a great match up, and with the current edition and the surplus of poison, it is still a viable tournament army.

Any chance you could post your list? A buddy of mine would be very interested.

ph34r wrote:

-Loki- wrote:I didn't say it needed to be as powerful, but there were ways to do it without killing it completely. Running an MC heavy list should be an option for Tyranids that isn't just comedy relief. Especially when they have the gall to say in the codex that its something viable.

MC heavy nids is totally viable, just take a look at the lists out there. They almost all run tervigons, and most run some amount of tyrants, tyrannofexes, and trygons. Some even run carnifexes, but that is kinda of an advanced technique now instead of a "ha ha my army is 6 carnifexes and you didn't take mechdar".

ha ha my army has two trygon primes popping up in the middle of your army and you have thirty stealers about to slam into you. Far more advanced technique Trouble with the fex is that it lost 2+ armour and costs more than ranged units able to kill them with impunity. ie vendetta 130pts, heavy weapon squads with lascannon, ravagers, devastator squads, even crisis suits come at similar points for a unit which is then summarily fisted to death due to low I. Or, you take a trygon that can pop up among an enemy army with high wounds, initative, attacks and FLEET mitigates the issue somewhat.
I would be fine taking the fex if the rules represented it being a 'cannonfodder' monstrous creature and the others more larger monsters. But most MC in the game trump the fex and often for less points. ie Talos st7 t7 d6attacks better ws i and a good chance to get FNp for 100pts to pick one example. But I digress.

On a light note, do you think GW deliberately nerfed 3.5 Chaos and 4th nids whilst massively boosting the Imperial armies. Its like they went out of their way to reverse the power level (as I seem to remember it, could never win with 3rd or 4th guard, EVER). All at a time when the Imperium was supposed to be receeding and the light of the Emperor fading. Yeah, right.

Shadelkan wrote:Any chance you could post your list? A buddy of mine would be very interested.

List is pretty simple.
Swarm lord with 2x guard (lash whips)
3 hive guard
3 zoanthropes
9 ygmarl genestealers
4x 24 hormagaunts with toxin sacs
15 termagants
2x 15 gargoyles with toxin sacs
2x trygon primes with adrenal glands.

The whole list moves in as quickly as possible, save the termagants who sit and huddle by objectives with lurk. Careful selection with genestealers near the objective or where there may be artillery. Trygons may either start on the board or deep strike, as well as gargoyles depending on opponent. Usually on top of the opponent by turn 2, three at the latest. With so many targets, it is hard for the opponent to do much.

-Loki- wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:My buddy plays a horde nid army, about 100 gaunts/hormaguants in 1500, the rest spent on his tyrants. I struggle to put out enough firepower to stop them, thankfully, when they do finally get to me, they bounce of my marines like nothing.

He seems to be running 500 points short of a 1500 piint game.

I highlighted it for you.

100 Gaunts is roughly 600 points depending on upgrades. Hive Tyrants with upgrades hit just over 200 points. To hit 1000, he needs either anoter 50 odd gaunts or very, very loaded up Tyrants. Either way, he deserves to lose with a list like that.

His list from memory -

Shooty Hive Tyrant w/ stuff - 230
Flying Tyrant (cc oreintated, has some sort of swords.) (over 200)

30 Hormagaunts - AG/TS - 300
30 Hormagaunts - AG/TS - 300
30 Hormagaunts - AG/TS - 300
15 Termagaunts - 150

Looks like you need a new calculator, or else you should upgrade your gaunts, if you spend nothing on them, you get nothing from them.

And if you spend that much on them, you deserve to lose. Ubergaunts are not something to use like that - best try to outflank them. Brining 90 ubergaunts to a battle with nothing to support them is asking for a loss - you even said it yourself, they bounce off your marines, so very few of them reach combat, because there's nothing supporting them.

I was assuming your friend was smarter than that. I'll not make that assumption now.

This army is also a gret example of why Tyranid horde units are overpriced. 300 points for 30 Hormagaunts that rely on other units to be able to move properly, have the stats of a guardsman and a worse armour save. While they are monsters in assault, they just don't get there.

well you can run a genestealer hoard list. I have found that alot more effective than gaunts. gaunts in my eyes are really only good if they have been spawned for free or they are there to let you take tervagans (sp?) as a troop choice. its more of a fun gaks and giggles list to run MASS gaunts. try that against blood angels. one blood talon dreadnaught can make your life very very unfun.