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Although I've played table top for a few years, I've never overly gotten into all the fluff until recently.

So basically, could some one give me a quick low down as the IoM's technology, and why the Machine Spirit is important?

On a side note, does this constant reproduction of old technology, mean that humanity has reached it's pinnacle, and will no longer advance technologically? Especially combined with the hatred for Xeno technology.

Thanks guys!

Well "the Machine Spirit" like the upgrade is a form of Artificial Intelligence. The machine spirit tech priests refer to is applying human traits to machines. When you oil the tracks you are pleasing the machine spirit, or performing routine maintenance.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page

Enjoy.

The machine sprite is a advanced AI, but makes it a machine sprite is that it use human parts. So the scanner might include an eye or the hub processor might be a skull. It's done this way that the machines can't just rebel because they need us to function. It also should be considered that some times there is no AI and that they just think it's in there. Kind of like when you talk nice to your computer to get it to work. Only they think that actually has an affect and somethings it dose has an affect.

The IoM has some real advanced tech in some places. They have something like half a dozen ways to destroy a planet. They don't make anything new though and things are slowly falling apart. The IoM actually reached it pinnacle a long time ago. Now they are slowly dieing out.

nomotog wrote:The machine sprite is a advanced AI, but makes it a machine sprite is that it use human parts. So the scanner might include an eye or the hub processor might be a skull.

Personally, I think the only "true" machine spirit would be a device that employs human brain tissue for processing data - like the Land Raider, which is thus indeed capable of developing a certain "mind of its own", does. It's just that over time the AdMech and then the Imperium as a whole came to believe that any kind of machine would have its own spirit that needs to be appeased - even your trusty lasgun, which I am quite sure does not incorporate any organic parts. It's contemporary habits (people yelling at their computer when it crashes) dialed up to eleven.

Lynata wrote:

nomotog wrote:The machine sprite is a advanced AI, but makes it a machine sprite is that it use human parts. So the scanner might include an eye or the hub processor might be a skull.

Personally, I think the only "true" machine spirit would be a device that employs human brain tissue for processing data - like the Land Raider, which is thus indeed capable of developing a certain "mind of its own", does. It's just that over time the AdMech and then the Imperium as a whole came to believe that any kind of machine would have its own spirit that needs to be appeased - even your trusty lasgun, which I am quite sure does not incorporate any organic parts. It's contemporary habits (people yelling at their computer when it crashes) dialed up to eleven.

Yes.

Revenent Reiko wrote:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page

Enjoy.

Yes.


Remember, the Adeptus Mechanicus is a profoundly secretive and subversive organizations well-deserving of it's title as a "cult". Much of what the AM does is hogwash (as was seen in Gunheads) that hides true goals. So, consider the Machine Spirit to be a useful idea that can easily blind a desperate population. In some cases, the term can have more meaning than in others but the fact remains that a Machine Spirit does not control the wanton malfunctions of a well pump (15 Hours). [Or does it!?]

All in all, technology within the IoM is all but lost. What remains is a terrifyingly powerful organization bent of hoarding the last few relics of a lost age. R&D is gone; enter the age of the scavenger.

IoM has never had particularly advanced tech. During the DAoT humanity was supposedly approaching pre-Fall Eldar levels of technology, but the Iron Men and Slaanesh more or less fethed that up entirely.

edit: Also, Machine Spirit is the Void Dragon, lolololololololololol etc.

I presume that the AdMech's philosophy isn't so stupid; Humanity's tech reached unfathomable heights in the past, so if anyone reclaims it, they pretty much reach the pinnacle of possibility. Thusly, there's no logical point in advancing tech by yourself, just go for the sacred works of our forefathers ;P

Henners91 wrote:I presume that the AdMech's philosophy isn't so stupid; Humanity's tech reached unfathomable heights in the past, so if anyone reclaims it, they pretty much reach the pinnacle of possibility. Thusly, there's no logical point in advancing tech by yourself, just go for the sacred works of our forefathers ;P

That is a completely logical way to go about that particular situation. However, I would argue that recovering a single fragment of information is not worth the lives of millions upon millions of individuals. The Adeptus Mechanicus only disgusts me in its disregard for human life. They don't even have the decency to clearly describe mission goals or outcomes. The Adeptus Mechanicus is a disturbing organization which sends good men and women to thier doom in the name of an agenda that hasn't even been truly revealed.

Read Storm of Iron and Gunheads. You'll understand why I'm full of bile dedicated to the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Henners91 wrote:I presume that the AdMech's philosophy isn't so stupid; Humanity's tech reached unfathomable heights in the past, so if anyone reclaims it, they pretty much reach the pinnacle of possibility. Thusly, there's no logical point in advancing tech by yourself, just go for the sacred works of our forefathers ;P

The AdMech are too inflexible when it comes to their view of technology. Yes, reclaiming DAoT tech and STC's is important. However they squander any kind of real innovation, it's why the Imperium is largely using the same weapons 10,000 years ago that it's using in 41st millennia. The Tau have managed to create some very advanced tech in a far shorter period because they encourage innovation, research, and adaptation. If anyone proposed making a more efficient plasma weapon or the like the AdMech would accuse them of heresy and the Inquisition would dispatch them.

This whole "machine god" approach to technology is precisely the problem for the IoM too. By associating technology with divinity you naturally put it outside of approach and make it seem as if it's impossible for mortals to change. The AdMech's philosophy is one of the reasons the IoM is in such a gak state.

New things are occasionally invented like newer versions of PA and perhaps new versions of Leman Russes. They don't fear Xenos tech as much as people usually think. They do think it's blasphemy to take and use it, but they do take it apart and see if they can make their own version of it. They simply focus more on recovering their own lost tech. As for the Machine Spirit, It is not in everything but definitely exists. Most of the AdMech know this, all but the lowest levels, they use the idea that it's in everything to keep the population in need of them. So other people don't tinker with machines and find out something.

Henners91 wrote:I presume that the AdMech's philosophy isn't so stupid; Humanity's tech reached unfathomable heights in the past, so if anyone reclaims it, they pretty much reach the pinnacle of possibility. Thusly, there's no logical point in advancing tech by yourself, just go for the sacred works of our forefathers ;P

True, but there is a difference between reproduction and understanding. The 'forefathers' in the Dark Age of Technology understood what they were creating/using, how it worked, and exactly what it did, the AdMech doesnt understand any of this with any depth. They know certain things work, and they have a working knowledge of what improvements will work/which ones wont, but they dont really undertsand the concepts involved and put it down (mostly) to tradition.

This is true of all classes in the IoM as well (see Ragnar in the 1st SW omnibus, he uses what is basically a computer on board a SW ship, and has to put 'ceremonial ungeents' onto it, and burn 'ceremonial incense' in a small bowl nex to it while typing in the correct 'invocations'. He is really just logging in and calling up the correct screen, but its all so ceremonialised - not sure if thats a word - that most of it has become meaningless. The unguents may well be a primitive cooling gel of some sort, especially since they are often used to 'keep the machine spirit happy, and stop it getting angry and hot - hint hint- but he doesnt really know what it is, and i dont think most of the AdMech know either, they just know how to make it, and that it works), similar examples can be found in most if not all BL books.

Its learned custom and tradition, not knowledge.

EDIT: not saying you are wrong Henners, just carrying on the thought

Nicholas wrote:New things are occasionally invented like newer versions of PA and perhaps new versions of Leman Russes.

Perhaps "invented" is too strong a word. From what I've seen, it is mostly about variants or minor improvements, such as adding a differently shaped breastplate to a suit of power armour or replacing one weapon on a Leman Russ with another.

That said, xeno technology is indeed of interest to the Imperium; the AdMech and the Ecclesiarchy are in a bitter rivalry concerning any discoveries made by Mechanicus Explorators and Ministorum Missionaries. In fact, I recall mesh armour to be a replica of an originally alien design.The Tech Priests seem to work with such discoveries in much the same way as they treat human technology: trying to analyze and reproduce it, then see how it fares when combined with other stuff. But true research that may some day yield entirely new angles of tech? Not so much, imho.

Lynata wrote: But true research that may some day yield entirely new angles of tech? Not so much, imho.

Unless it is against a specific threat/problem, like Nids for example (hellfire, or maybe inferno rounds... the poison ones, were invented specifically for use against Nids).

Mesh armour came from captured Eldar armour IIRC.

sirrah wrote:edit: Also, Machine God is the Void Dragon, lolololololololololol etc.

Fixed that for you.

Generally the Machine Spirit is either a reasonably basic AI or a religious metaphor if no AI is present. The IoM will not use advanced AI due to the Iron Men so it's at the basic level of a Servitor; it knows a few functions and has to be told to do them. The Ad Mech believe that there is a part of the Machine God inside every single machine, even those belonging to Xenos. However they employ the most pure designs and as such the creations of the Xenos and corruptions of chaos are seen as heretical. By appeasing the spirit which inhabits each machine they are able to get it to function, similarly if the spirit is displeased or insulted the machine will malfunction.

The Machine Spirit, Machine God and Omnisiah are all completely different things too.
Machine Spirit, as mentioned in the thread already, is the spirit of each machine and a fragment of the Machine God itself.
Machine God is just that, the god of all machines.
The Omnisiah is the physical avatar or physical incarnation of the Machine God. Some of the Cult Mechanicus view the Emperor as the Omnisiah due to the powers he showed when he was active, but not all of them have accepted this.

Then there are actually a few different versions of their religion itself. Like the Cult of the Micro-Omnisiah which believe the smaller the machine is the closer it is to the Omnisiah.

Also, carrying on from n0t_u, Chaos devices are seen as heretical because they are often invested with Daemonic possession, which kills the Machine Spirit.

Revenent Reiko wrote:Also, carrying on from n0t_u, Chaos devices are seen as heretical because they are often invested with Daemonic possession, which kills the Machine Spirit.

That's not just it. They call the tau tech heretical and there is not a spot of demon in it. Maybe they consider the drone AI a demon?

Bla my mind slipped on me.

n0t_u wrote:

Generally the Machine Spirit is either a reasonably basic AI or a religious metaphor if no AI is present. The IoM will not use advanced AI due to the Iron Men so it's at the basic level of a Servitor; it knows a few functions and has to be told to do them. The Ad Mech believe that there is a part of the Machine God inside every single machine, even those belonging to Xenos. However they employ the most pure designs and as such the creations of the Xenos and corruptions of chaos are seen as heretical. By appeasing the spirit which inhabits each machine they are able to get it to function, similarly if the spirit is displeased or insulted the machine will malfunction.

Not always true, though. For instance, the Machine Spirits of Titans appear to be at a fairly high intellectual level, perhaps equivalent to a fairly intelligent animal. Titans are certainly usually portrayed as having their own personalities and desires, distinct from those of their crew.

nomotog wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:Also, carrying on from n0t_u, Chaos devices are seen as heretical because they are often invested with Daemonic possession, which kills the Machine Spirit.

That's not just it. They call the tau tech heretical and there is not a spot of demon in it. Maybe they consider the drone AI a demon?

Bla my mind slipped on me.

I was just continuing the thought as it were.

But yes, Tau tech is also considered heretical, but this is more that they use an AI in the first place, not that it is a demon. Mankind learned the hard way the error of this (see Iron Men Wars).

nomotog wrote:The machine sprite is a advanced AI.

Anvanced is not really the right word, yes it is advanced by our standards, but by 40k standards it is very limited.

True Machine Spirits are only allowed to make chioces within a defined framework so are not truelly AI

New things are occasionally invented like newer versions of PA and perhaps new versions of Leman Russes.

Those aren't really examples of invention. That's innovation. Simply putting a weapon that already exists, onto a new platform is not invention, it's innovation.

Now if Dreadnoughts suddenly lost their smoke stacks because they were powered by cold fusion reactors, that would be invention of new tech LOL.

It is true that Chaos would kill the Machine Spirit though, since the true Machine Spirit is a C'tan.

Revenent Reiko wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:Also, carrying on from n0t_u, Chaos devices are seen as heretical because they are often invested with Daemonic possession, which kills the Machine Spirit.

That's not just it. They call the tau tech heretical and there is not a spot of demon in it. Maybe they consider the drone AI a demon?

Bla my mind slipped on me.

I was just continuing the thought as it were.

But yes, Tau tech is also considered heretical, but this is more that they use an AI in the first place, not that it is a demon. Mankind learned the hard way the error of this (see Iron Men Wars).

My mind slipped a little when I posted.

A machine spirit is still an AI. They just use human parts in it. You know, I don't actually see that stopping them from having new iron wars.

They're not really AI. They don't have the "I think, therefore, I am" paradigm as part of their code. They would be what is referred to in some settings as "expert systems". While they can (sometimes) act independently, provide copious amounts of data, make conjectures given available and recorded data, and all of that sort of thing... they can only do this for a very limited range of subjects. If it's a tank, for example, it will know much about fuel consumption, operational range, terrain variances, cannon elevation and firing arcs and effective munition payloads, target silhouette recognition, tactical advance maneuvers, likely battle outcomes, and so forth and so on... but it would be completely unable to tell you anything at all about horticulture or Imperial society. It's not programmed to know these things, and is incapable of learning them.

The Machine Spirit is better viewed as super complicated computer programming, NOT AI.

AI implies that the machine is self aware, capable of making morale decisions, and learning from its experiences.


the Machine Spirit, while it does learn to a minor extent, is not sapient. it doesn't do anything that it isn't programmed to do, and its ability to learn and alter its own programing is limited by the fact that its made of organic componants that break down over time(meaning things must be replaced)

the Machine Spirit has more in common with our modern computers then it does with C-3PO or The Terminator. It just has very exaustive programming which covers nearly ever concievable situation that could happen in a battle.

The Crimson Fist Landraider that fought off the Orks invading Rynn's World was simply reacting to the invasion and the fact it had no crew, it began to attack the orks by itself. It obviously had all the various Ork biomorphs registered in its memory banks as a hostile lifeform that was to be attacked on sight, it would also have various Codex pattern Tank strategys impanted as well. it then acted on its programming and began to attack the orks.

AI does not imply sentience or morality. AI textbooks define the field as "the study and design of intelligent agents"[2] where an intelligent agent is a system that perceives its environment and takes actions that maximize its chances of success.

In that sense the Machine Spirit is in fact AI, it senses the environment and acts to achieve it's goals (the destruction of the enemies of mankind).
The LR (Rynn's Might?) absolutely acted in the manner expected of artificial but not sentient intelligence.

AustonT wrote:AI does not imply sentience or morality. AI textbooks define the field as "the study and design of intelligent agents"[2] where an intelligent agent is a system that perceives its environment and takes actions that maximize its chances of success.

In that sense the Machine Spirit is in fact AI, it senses the environment and acts to achieve it's goals (the destruction of the enemies of mankind).
The LR (Rynn's Might?) absolutely acted in the manner expected of artificial but not sentient intelligence.

While that may be the technical definition for our modern world, we are talking a science fiction setting. Science Fiction definitions are often different, in this case they are very different.

In most cases I would be inclined to agree with you, but in this case you are stretchng the definition of Artificial Intelligence. The poster above you said that AI required "I think therefor I am" and you yourself said "AI implies that the machine is self aware, capable of making morale decisions, and learning from its experiences." Both are untrue, as both of you are applying sentience ( in the commonly accepted SciFi sense) or sapience as an synonym to AI. AI is simply what it sounds like an intelligence that is artificial in nature.
To answer just what you said. A dog is intelligent, some even argue self aware, but distinctly lacks the capability to make moral decisions. That doesn't make the dog unintelligent it simply lacks the sapient understanding of morals.
You can't arbitrarily change the definition of AI just because it doesn't fit your interpretation, in the science fiction setting whether AI is or is not sapient it does in fact remain two things: artificial and intelligent.

No machine in the Imperium is Artificially Intelligent. AI research is banned by the Adeptus Mechanicus as the highest form of tech-heresy.

You should read Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series if you havent already - it contains some ideas that, personally, I think are the basis for a lot of the 40k universe. Adeptus Mechanicus included.