Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Okay, so the current fluff is that all new Chapters are created on Mars. I don't think there's much detail but unless I have the facts very wrong it basically goes that around 1000 or so recruits are rounded up by the guys on Mars who are not Space Marines but are in charge of "founding" a new Chapter. Those recruits are run through the process of becoming Space Marines. They are given general training in accordance to the Codex and once deemed able to perform as a Chapter they're sent out to some area of the Galaxy to start their service.

Now, given the secrecy of some chapters like the Dark Angels, why would they ever trust these newly generated successors with their "dark secret"? Black Templars stray far from the Codex so why would they try to assimilate what are essentially Ultramarines (at least doctrinally) into their ranks? Also, why aren't new chapters generated from traitor geneseed? It can't be due to the traitor's actions as there are technically more Ultramarine traitors over the past 10,000 years than any of the old traitor legions. I don't think any of them became traitors due to geneseed defect, either.

So, what exactly does the Dark Angels councel do with a newly formed DA successor chapter and how would such a chapter be molded to the Dark Angels' designs instead of being lost amongst the rest of the Ultramarine wannabes?

There's only 7 chapters that form the Unforgiven and are in the know. Just because you've inherited some gene-seed doesn't mean you get to be part of the club. It's safe to say many chapters have been created from DA gene-seed post heresy. They're not part of the club though.

Is there any detailed fluff on how the new successor chapters are trained up? I mean, who trains the new chapter's Chaplains and Librarians? I assume nobody wants a bunch of raw recruits running amok so how would a new chapter get it's Captains and Terminators?

No actual fluff but there is an idea that a chapter supplies a few veterans (and an experienced officer) top train them and if they choose to they can stay on and become senior officers in the new chapter. This isn't substantiated as far as i know.

I think Marines from other chapters (codex ones) are either plucked up or placed on secondment.

As for the gene seed thing. Ultramarines still have the purest gene-seed so it's the go to gene-seed.
More sons of guilliman have not gone rouge overall. Even if 100% of the post heresy traitor marines are Ultramarine successors they still don't equal one traitor legion. There's simply a taboo on the Traitor Legion geneseed that is so strong it cannot be used. How are you supposed to explain to a new recruit his primarch is Fulgrim? It's just best to avoid that problem.

Dark Angels only have the unforgiven circle. Their geneseed is really pure actually.
Along with the ultramarines.

Would the custodians and Inquisition be involved in the training and formation? And would the new chapter just be assigned a section of space to occupy?

Igenstilch wrote:Would the custodians and Inquisition be involved in the training and formation? And would the new chapter just be assigned a section of space to occupy?

Custodes No. They guard the imperial palace thats it.

The Inqusition are not allowed to interfer. But they did help create one chapter. Exorcists. But thats an arm of the Inquisition basically.

No, The Inquisition and Custodes would not be involved in training. What the hell do they know about being a space marine? Yes, They are often assigned a specfic territory or task by The Inquistion and/or High Lords.

To elaborate on what KamikazeCanuck said, though it has never really been explored in the fluff, the common assumption goes that once the high lords have decreed a founding, a particular extant chapter is assigned the task of providing veterans and specialists to each new chapter (since this would be rather a prestigious thing for the contributing chapter, it might, one could speculate, be viewed as an honour or reward for particularly meritorious service over long years) and given 1,000 geneseeds, 1,000 suits of Mk 7, an STC fortress-monastary kit and overlordship of a feral world. And then told to get on with it.

Presumably the chapter providing trainers and commanders is chosen to match the geneseed being used. So, to answer your question, presumably when the high lords chose to use Dark Angels geneseed, one of the Unforgiven chapters assigns a Grand Master to lead the new chapter, who institutes within it the system of the circles of mystery and the Dark Angels unique chapter organisation. Whether there are successors to the Dark Angels who lack such knowledge, I know not. Logically-speaking, one would expect, given their 'stable' geneseed for there to be more than seven successors to the 1st Legion, unless perhaps the Sons of the Lion's secrecy and (immensely obvious) hidden agenda discourages the high lords from using it.

There are probably more chapters using DA geneseed outside of the unforgiven than in it.
They wouldn't necessarily get a known DA chapter to train the new one. More often than not new chapters aren't even told who their primarch is and never find out.

That would make sense, though having leafed through the relevant books, I can't find it attested in the fluff. There are certainly enough 'Progenitor: Unknown' chapters that it's entirely plausible, however.

I think the powers to be might see an advantage to not educating Space Marines on their heritage. No need to confuse loyalties with all this primarch talk.

Well, I'm pretty sure most Chapters know who their Primarch was (otherwise it wouldn't be such a big deal for the Blood Ravens not knowing), and they venerate them to varying degrees.

Well if Geneseed can make Blood Angels think they're Sanguinius and feel some kind of psychic empathy for his past experiences and Space Marines describe action against their Primarch as unthinkable, I think it's fair enough to say that the geneseed instills some loyalty toward the Primarch. Add to that general indoctrination and pride in an inherited history, I think that new chapters might be fairly malleable... perhaps the parent simply sends a small body to help 'integrate' the new guys?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

English Assassin wrote:To elaborate on what KamikazeCanuck said, though it has never really been explored in the fluff, the common assumption goes that once the high lords have decreed a founding, a particular extant chapter is assigned the task of providing veterans and specialists to each new chapter (since this would be rather a prestigious thing for the contributing chapter, it might, one could speculate, be viewed as an honour or reward for particularly meritorious service over long years) and given 1,000 geneseeds, 1,000 suits of Mk 7, an STC fortress-monastary kit and overlordship of a feral world. And then told to get on with it.

Presumably the chapter providing trainers and commanders is chosen to match the geneseed being used. So, to answer your question, presumably when the high lords chose to use Dark Angels geneseed, one of the Unforgiven chapters assigns a Grand Master to lead the new chapter, who institutes within it the system of the circles of mystery and the Dark Angels unique chapter organisation. Whether there are successors to the Dark Angels who lack such knowledge, I know not. Logically-speaking, one would expect, given their 'stable' geneseed for there to be more than seven successors to the 1st Legion, unless perhaps the Sons of the Lion's secrecy and (immensely obvious) hidden agenda discourages the high lords from using it.

Oh Dear, why are you giving me images of some wondrous new video game idea?

Omegus wrote:Well, I'm pretty sure most Chapters know who their Primarch was (otherwise it wouldn't be such a big deal for the Blood Ravens not knowing), and they venerate them to varying degrees.

That raises an interesting question itself; ostensibly there are plenty of chapters described in the fluff as 'Progenitor: Unknown' but it's very possible that a lacuna, simply because it's chapters of 'unusual' heritage which offer more opportunity for the studio to write something new than, for instance, just another codex-complaint Ultramarines successor.

Henners91 wrote:Well if Geneseed can make Blood Angels think they're Sanguinius and feel some kind of psychic empathy for his past experiences and Space Marines describe action against their Primarch as unthinkable, I think it's fair enough to say that the geneseed instills some loyalty toward the Primarch. Add to that general indoctrination and pride in an inherited history, I think that new chapters might be fairly malleable... perhaps the parent simply sends a small body to help 'integrate' the new guys?

The Blood Angels and the curse of Sanguinius would seem to be something of a special case, but yes, that would lend weight to the argument that most chapters should be expected to be aware of their heritage.

Glad I've given you an entertaining idea - I've been tempted to use the same as the setup for a Deathwatch game.

English Assassin wrote:Logically-speaking, one would expect, given their 'stable' geneseed for there to be more than seven successors to the 1st Legion, unless perhaps the Sons of the Lion's secrecy and (immensely obvious) hidden agenda discourages the high lords from using it.

Fluff says that although Dark Angels have very pure Geneseed they are often not used for founding and that it is the nature of the Dark Angels that causes this.