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Ok, I'm way confused.....

In the main rulebook and even in the Army book.... the Daemonic Instability test is a special break test.

If the daemons lose, combat resolution is calculated and subtracted from Leadership.....


So, if the daemon player loses combat by 20 and has a Leadership 10 model.... his Leadership would be reduced to 0 (as no attribute can be lower than 0 or higher than 10). If a 3 is rolled for the break test then the unit should take an addiitional unsavable wound.



But, in the Choas Daemon FAQ v1.4..... there is a specific question on the second page.... the second question...

Q. Is the maximum number of wounds that can be inflicted by a failed Instability test limited to 10 (a roll of '12' compared to a Leadership 2)?
A. No. Remember that combat resolution adds to the dice roll, rather than being subtracted from Leadership.

So, if the daemon player loses combat by 20and has a Leadership 10 model... If a 3 is rolled for the break test, then 20 is added to the roll and subtracted from the Leadership (23-10=13). The daemon player would take an additional 13 unsavable wounds.

So, my question is:

1) Where in the WORLD should I remember that combat resolution adds to the dice roll rather than being subtracted from Leadership?
2) Which way is the correct way?
3) Why doesn't someone step up and do a INATFAQ for Warhammer?.... I know the concensus is that Warhammer doesn't have as many rule cloudiness as 40k, but its got enough.

Well, the combat result being added to the leadership die roll thing is a holdover from 7th edition, no doubt missed when the FAQ was moved over between editions. I'd still say the basic premise of the rule is correct, as I can't find anywhere that a characteristic cannot be reduced to less than zero (please correct me if I'm wrong) but as it says in the rulebook, if you roll snake eyes you automatically pass and take no casualties even if you were to have a -5 Ld.

It essentially works the same way, just as a negative modifier to Ld, rather than a "positive" (so to speak) modifier to the die roll.

I think it functions on the primiss that Insane courage is always passes in a 2 thus the most you can lose by is 12??? other than that makes no sence to me either

No, you can lose by a lot more than 12.

Here is how you do Daemon Instability:

a) Add up combat resolution modifiers as normal (wounds, banners, ranks, etc) for both sides and compare.
b) Figure out how much the Daemons lose by, just like normal. For example, my total is 17, the Daemons 8. The Daemons therefore lose by (17-8)= 9.
c) Take a leadership test. If it is not insane courage (double ), move to the next step. If it is insane courage, the Daemons lose no further models. Wrap up combat as normal (reforms, etc).
d) Add however much the Daemons lost by to the Leadership test, unless they are Steadfast/Stubborn, in which case as normal there is no leadership modifier. To keep it simple, the Daemons are not Steadfast or Stubborn and the Daemons roll a nice, average 7. 7+9=16.
e) Subtract the Daemons leadership from the total in step d). Since there is a Herald in the unit, the Daemons have a ld 8. 16-8=8.
f) The Daemons lose 8 models.

The double 1 insane courage is always a pass if you're taking any Ld test.

The order of rules importance from what i understand is Core Rulebook < Army Book < FAQ. So if the rule book says one thing, the army book says another, and the FAQ says a third... The FAQ is what you follow. The idea being that FAQs are released more often and are more accurate than either of the other two.

I dont think that when you lose combat your leadership is reduced, the success roll is modified. So if you had a Ld 9 Dwarf Warrior unit that loses combat by 4, they're still Ld 9 but they only pass their break test on a roll of a 5. which would mean in the Daemon example you first give (and consequently the second) where you lose combat by 20 at Ld 10. You would need a roll of -10 to pass your instability test. Double one is insane courage so if you roll that you're ok, but that means if you roll that 3 then you've failed by 13 since the difference between -10 and 3 is 13. In either example you're sitting at a lost wound count of 13. Both the resident Daemon player and store manager at the GW that i go to agree with and have seen the above ruling used at tournaments.

In the end though i'm not sorry for you at all. I play VC and when i lose combat i just lose lots of guys, no Ld test to save my dead arse. Hopefully though this clarifies things for you (whether or not you want it to be this way)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davall wrote:No, you can lose by a lot more than 12.

Here is how you do Daemon Instability:

a) Add up combat resolution modifiers as normal (wounds, banners, ranks, etc) for both sides and compare.
b) Figure out how much the Daemons lose by, just like normal. For example, my total is 17, the Daemons 8. The Daemons therefore lose by (17-8)= 9.
c) Take a leadership test. If it is not insane courage (double ), move to the next step. If it is insane courage, the Daemons lose no further models. Wrap up combat as normal (reforms, etc).
d) Add however much the Daemons lost by to the Leadership test, unless they are Steadfast/Stubborn, in which case as normal there is no leadership modifier. To keep it simple, the Daemons are not Steadfast or Stubborn and the Daemons roll a nice, average 7. 7+9=16.
e) Subtract the Daemons leadership from the total in step d). Since there is a Herald in the unit, the Daemons have a ld 8. 16-8=8.
f) The Daemons lose 8 models.

I was posting the same time Davall here did. First off, nice description Davall. Secondly, they both work out the same. In his example, using the method we use. You lose combat by 9 at Ld 8. your successful Ld test would be a -1 (Ld 8- Combat Res 9), rolling a 7 gives you 8 wounds lost (-1 to 7). I just wanted to post so you could see the two ways of thinking about it. In either case they're both right. I will grant it that Davalls math is easier for the masses.. it does however go against the normal view of 'reducing' ones leadership when you lose combat.