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Ok so which is better (I think both are good but I can't decide).

Cheers to all comments.

First thing you need to state is if you're going to be competitive. If not, either list is perfectly fine.

However, if you're competitive, Battlewagons are better. This is so because Kan Wall is screwed over by deployment type, things that ignore cover saves, things that can Deep Strike behind the wall, and armies that can kite the wall. Battlewagons take the fight to the enemy and can get into the assault by turn 3 if not earlier. Kan Wall's answer to AV14 is mainly with the DCCWs on the Kans. However, you're subject to having to roll to hit, while with a Deffrolla, you automatically hit, granted if you're in ram range.

There's a lot more that I'm sure more experience players can chime in on.

AresX8 wrote:First thing you need to state is if you're going to be competitive. If not, either list is perfectly fine.

However, if you're competitive, Battlewagons are better. This is so because Kan Wall is screwed over by deployment type, things that ignore cover saves, things that can Deep Strike behind the wall, and armies that can kite the wall. Battlewagons take the fight to the enemy and can get into the assault by turn 3 if not earlier. Kan Wall's answer to AV14 is mainly with the DCCWs on the Kans. However, you're subject to having to roll to hit, while with a Deffrolla, you automatically hit, granted if you're in ram range.

There's a lot more that I'm sure more experience players can chime in on.

I think I am starting to go competitive.

So what should I equip with my battle wagons?

I give my Wagons:

Deffrolla
1 Big Shoota
Red Paint Job
Armour Plates
Grot Riggers
Boarding Planks

All of the upgrades should be able to speak for themselves.

My standard list for competitive and no-comp is a warboss and mek (Big Mek is ABSOLUTELY required) followed by 2 BWagons filled with 20 boyz each (I would run 3 full but i dont have the $$$ for the third BW) and then 3 trukks full of boyz and finally 2 squads of 7 lootas. That is a good list to build to and do some fine tuning to. Its a good overall list that can take any opponent.


Wolf

AresX8 wrote:I give my Wagons:

Deffrolla
1 Big Shoota
Red Paint Job
Armour Plates
Grot Riggers
Boarding Planks

All of the upgrades should be able to speak for themselves.

This. Add grabbin' claws if you got points to spare.

Than wall works best up to about 1850 points, after that your army's power doesn't increase as much for the point you spent. Larger point opponents also have an easier time killing all those kanz and boyz.

Battlewagon Bash doesn't become viable until 1500 points, but easily scales up to 2500 points.

I don't really want to VOTE because they're two very viable builds. Battle Wagon Bash has the advantage of being able to scale up better in the 2000 and 2500 point range. The Kan Wall is perfectly viable at 1500 - 2000 though.

Jidmah wrote:

AresX8 wrote:I give my Wagons:

Deffrolla
1 Big Shoota
Red Paint Job
Armour Plates
Grot Riggers
Boarding Planks

All of the upgrades should be able to speak for themselves.

This. Add grabbin' claws if you got points to spare.

Than wall works best up to about 1850 points, after that your army's power doesn't increase as much for the point you spent. Larger point opponents also have an easier time killing all those kanz and boyz.

Battlewagon Bash doesn't become viable until 1500 points, but easily scales up to 2500 points.

Thank you for the advice but I think I will replace the big shoota with grabbin claw.

Also is this a good tactic:

9 Nobs with big choppas with 1 warboss with big choppa all with 'evy armour in a battle wagon?

Cheers to all comments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bwolf999 wrote:My standard list for competitive and no-comp is a warboss and mek (Big Mek is ABSOLUTELY required) followed by 2 BWagons filled with 20 boyz each (I would run 3 full but i dont have the $$$ for the third BW) and then 3 trukks full of boyz and finally 2 squads of 7 lootas. That is a good list to build to and do some fine tuning to. Its a good overall list that can take any opponent.


Wolf

What about 30 boys or is that too bogged down for 'em?

Oh and before I forget I usually play 1750-2000pts as this is tournament style at my local tourney.

Leave the Big Shoota on the Wagon. It's there for weapon destroyed results so you don't get immobilized immediately. If you get any shooting out of it, consider it a bonus.

You want Nobs to have PKs and a Painboy with all Cyborks. 'eavy Armor is a waste of points considering that a 5+ invul is significantly better, and against non-PW/ AP2/1 shooting you have FNP, plus wound shenanigans. Here's an example of how you should kit out your Nobs:

1 Painboy with Cybork
1 PK with Cybork
1 PK with Bosspole, Cybork
1 PK with WAAAGH! Banner, Cybork
1 Normal and Cybork
1 Big Choppa and Cybork

EDIT: Remember, a Wagon can hold only 20 Boyz.

AresX8 wrote:Leave the Big Shoota on the Wagon. It's there for weapon destroyed results so you don't get immobilized immediately. If you get any shooting out of it, consider it a bonus.

You want Nobs to have PKs and a Painboy with all Cyborks. 'eavy Armor is a waste of points considering that a 5+ invul is significantly better, and against non-PW/ AP2/1 shooting you have FNP, plus wound shenanigans. Here's an example of how you should kit out your Nobs:

1 Painboy with Cybork
1 PK with Cybork
1 PK with Bosspole, Cybork
1 PK with WAAAGH! Banner, Cybork
1 Normal and Cybork
1 Big Choppa and Cybork

EDIT: Remember, a Wagon can hold only 20 Boyz.

yes you are correct and I see the tactic, thank you.

and all I know is that to have Int 3 is quite good against tau and necrons but any other races would it be useful against?

EDIT: sorry I forgot that I wanted a WAAAAAGH banner with the squad and the warboss would benefit ALOT with a big choppa and +1 WS.

Also I want ghazzy, in army (so will have to choose warboss or ghazghkull... any help here?)

Rule of thumb for orks is, if it has a worse initiative than you, it can't beat you in CC anyways, the only exception would be power fists and thunder hammers.

The problem with the big choppa squad is, that I4 still isn't great, and many attacks will be deflected by armor. You will get much better results by using less nobz and adding 2-3 powerklaws instead. For the same points you still get some big choppa attacks at I4, but now add in klaws that kill things with good armor and prevent WBB on necrons. You'll find that the killing power the unit is much greater than the killing power of all big choppas.

As for the warboss with nobz, let's got to simple ork math: A warboss kills anything. A squad of nobz also kills anything. So a warboss with a squad of nobz kills anything twice. Basically you're wasting your warboss's strength when putting him with nobz, because most things are already dead by the time you get to strike. That +1WS isn't that great for him anyways, the only difference when going from WS5 to WS6, is being better against other WS6 characters. A warboss should instant-death those, or not be in close combat in the first place.
A warboss should best be with boyz or burnaz. Boyz can use the extra PK attacks, while burnaz need the higher LD and the boss pole.

You should view Ghazghkull Thrakka as an upgrade to your regular warboss. He is expensive, so if you don't have the points to field him, use a warboss. At 2000 points, fielding Ghazzy should not be a problem, at 1750 you might want to use a warboss and add some koptaz, buggies or lootaz instead.

Jidmah wrote:Rule of thumb for orks is, if it has a worse initiative than you, it can't beat you in CC anyways, the only exception would be power fists and thunder hammers.

The problem with the big choppa squad is, that I4 still isn't great, and many attacks will be deflected by armor. You will get much better results by using less nobz and adding 2-3 powerklaws instead. For the same points you still get some big choppa attacks at I4, but now add in klaws that kill things with good armor and prevent WBB on necrons. You'll find that the killing power the unit is much greater than the killing power of all big choppas.

As for the warboss with nobz, let's got to simple ork math: A warboss kills anything. A squad of nobz also kills anything. So a warboss with a squad of nobz kills anything twice. Basically you're wasting your warboss's strength when putting him with nobz, because most things are already dead by the time you get to strike. That +1WS isn't that great for him anyways, the only difference when going from WS5 to WS6, is being better against other WS6 characters. A warboss should instant-death those, or not be in close combat in the first place.
A warboss should best be with boyz or burnaz. Boyz can use the extra PK attacks, while burnaz need the higher LD and the boss pole.

You should view Ghazghkull Thrakka as an upgrade to your regular warboss. He is expensive, so if you don't have the points to field him, use a warboss. At 2000 points, fielding Ghazzy should not be a problem, at 1750 you might want to use a warboss and add some koptaz, buggies or lootaz instead.

Thanks for the tactics but I think for fast attack, im going flat out on Deffkoptas (I Dont really like anything else in the FA section), this also leads me to what Should I equip them with (rokkits are essential).

EDIT: so ghazzy is on the menu.

Jidmah wrote:Rule of thumb for orks is, if it has a worse initiative than you, it can't beat you in CC anyways, the only exception would be power fists and thunder hammers.

The problem with the big choppa squad is, that I4 still isn't great, and many attacks will be deflected by armor. You will get much better results by using less nobz and adding 2-3 powerklaws instead. For the same points you still get some big choppa attacks at I4, but now add in klaws that kill things with good armor and prevent WBB on necrons. You'll find that the killing power the unit is much greater than the killing power of all big choppas.

Yes if you throw more points at a unit it gets better....

I run 10 nobs, Painboys, one PK and the rest Big Choppas with a Waagh! Banner and Bosspole thrown in. Saving the extra points is worth it. With the amount of attacks it throws down it kills whatever it touches. I4 is great because your not loosing models before they get to strike. It's all about making your opponent roll saves and most of the time hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's is all you need.

My battlewagon list at 1500.

3 Battlewagons with DRollaz, 2 big shootas, grot riggers, plates.

in 2 of those, 2 units of 20 boyz with choppas, nob with pk and bp.

in the middle one, a unit of 15 burnaz with a big mek with kff.

2 units of 5 lootas.

2 separate deffkoptas with buzzsaw and rokkits.

1 deffdread with 4 ccw.

It works thusly.
If I get 1st turn, deffkoptas turboboost in scout move, then move, shoot and assault any tank with AV lower that 14 on the opposite side (24" then 12" then 6" = 42" move into assault with a pf), lootas with their 48" open up on anything the koptas can't get at.
Battlewagons trundle forwards as one, until they get close then move to individual target units. The boyz at regular troops, burnaz at elites like terminators or death company/wolfguard etc.

Burnaz in an open topped battlewagon only use one flame template to resolve all hits, so maximise the number under your template. Example, on one occasion I got them into range with a unit of wolfguard with a wolfchaplin (or whatever it's called), containing all manner of lightning claws and other unfun nasty stuff. The opposing player had bunched all this unit under a building to hide them from the lootas. I was able to cover 10 marines with the template.

10 marines + 1 template + 15 Lootas = 150 automatic hits at Str 4... Now, remember that those hits are spread over the entire unit... The entire unit including the tricked out wolfchaplin evaporated.
This combination is great against MEQ armies, as long as you get it over there and into their elite unit.

I love this so much that if their battlewagon gets immobilised, I hop them over to one of the boyz BWs and the boyz have to run the rest of the way.

I take the Deffdread cos I like the model, he occasionally draws heavy weapon fire away from the BWs and I live in the hope of him one day accomplishing something awesome... (although he did once last 4 rounds of combat against a friend's tricked out Daemon Prince HQ, which was hilarious). But you could certainly take something more worthwhile in his stead.

Go for a battle wagon rush, a kan wall has to fit many variables, I think specifics were stated before.

A single PK kills 1.5 times the amount of guardsmen, twice the amount of necrons/scouts/etc, three times the amount of marines and four times the amount of terminators as big choppas. There really is no point in blowing up you squad to 10 if you could just drop one or two nobz for much more killing power.

I use Kan wall for ~1000 and battlewagons 1500+
Higher point games you really see an advantage of BWs

Thank you all for your tactic's

MeanGreenStompa:

Thanks I do have a deff dread with 4 close combat weapons so I like the sound of it drawing heavy weapons fire away...

Now Deffkoptas:

should I equip bigbommz and buzz saws on them or are they just a waste?

Agree about the Nobz squad a group of 5 with 3 PK is way better than 10 with 1 PK.
Imagine if your biggest threat is a 10 man terminator or an AV 13 Furioso ( or whatever that BA dreadnaught is called ) with blood claws, you only get the 1 PK to hit it, and you have to roll through WS and still got hit a 4 just for a glance on only 4 dice is risky.
On an early note, Ghaz is great, on greater than ~1800 points. People say he is only better because of profit of waaagh, but he has more attacks on the charge he gets 2++ when you attack something scary and he is an eternal warrior, I know there isnt much S10 out there but force weapons, they are all over high ranking lists.
On bigbomms, I never use them. The buzzsaws are good against AV with a 24 inch scout move + 12 movement in and 6 assault you can pop some AV ( and twinlinked rokkits!! )
Coptas are best in small groups of 3x1, they have LD issues ( they are pretty much sac units, but you can get huge points or huge tactical advantages for popping a transport or some other early threat Turn 1 )

happygolucky wrote:Thank you all for your tactic's

MeanGreenStompa:

Thanks I do have a deff dread with 4 close combat weapons so I like the sound of it drawing heavy weapons fire away...

Now Deffkoptas:

should I equip bigbommz and buzz saws on them or are they just a waste?

Well, Sgt Bash (my dred) tends to get blown to bits as he huffs and puffs his way over the battlefield. If you wanted to get serious competitive, replace him with something like a trukk of boyz or a grotsquad or something to hold objectives on your own side of the table. (carpeting it with grots gone to ground or keeping the trukk in reserve and then racing it on to kill anything your opponent puts on it like jump pack marines etc).

Deffkoptaz, take two, individual (as in two fast attack choices of one deffkopta) and give them the twin linked rokkits and the buzzsaw, nothing more, nothing less. These are great for the following...

All MEQ tanks that aren't landraiders or monoliths. Predators, vindicators, razorbacks, even land speeders (esp ones with pesky melta!) Don't use em on dreads etc as the pk means they hit last.
Great for attacking skulking tau, DE and eldar tanks as those skimmer rules won't be in effect until they have moved... So If you get the 1st turn and can reach em, good chance you're going to kill them.
If you face an opposing battlewagon rush... you're only hitting armour 10 in cc and the KFF won't protect them in cc either...
They'll eat the face off Imperial Guard tanks, but if you get to hit Valks/Vendettas instead, even more win.

Then be prepared to watch them die, that's ok though, as they did what you wanted them to do!

Well I was thinking with the Deffkoptas, 3 squads of 3 with buzz saws and Rokkits any good?

Jidmah wrote: four times the amount of terminators as big choppas

Your throwing away your Nobs if your attacking terminators with them... but either way Jimmy am not here to have a pissing contest with you. I love Big Choppas you love PK nobody else here cares...

Please back to topic now.

Deffcoptas suck on LD tests, as long as you can keep them alive without them making any moral tests you should be fine. I like running them in groups of 1. If you keep 1 behind the other you get one blown up but the other 2 get into melee range of their light AV and without being part of a squad you can split the fire and attacks up. If you play mirror against BW you are hitting against 10s on the attack, and with 24 inch scout moves + 12 inches sometimes you can shoot dreadnaughts backs.

happygolucky wrote:Well I was thinking with the Deffkoptas, 3 squads of 3 with buzz saws and Rokkits any good?

Expensive and pointless.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

happygolucky wrote:Well I was thinking with the Deffkoptas, 3 squads of 3 with buzz saws and Rokkits any good?

Expensive and pointless.

Ok then I will spend up in other areas then.

Jidmah wrote:

AresX8 wrote:I give my Wagons:

Deffrolla
1 Big Shoota
Red Paint Job
Armour Plates
Grot Riggers
Boarding Planks

All of the upgrades should be able to speak for themselves.

This. Add grabbin' claws if you got points to spare.

Than wall works best up to about 1850 points, after that your army's power doesn't increase as much for the point you spent. Larger point opponents also have an easier time killing all those kanz and boyz.

Battlewagon Bash doesn't become viable until 1500 points, but easily scales up to 2500 points.

grabba klaws are nice when you cna have them yes... but first I'd take a second big shoota I always run 2, since it is open top weapon destroyed aren't uncommon and for another 5 points per gun it has saved my wgaons maybe times from being immobalised on that second weapon destroyed

G00fySmiley wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

AresX8 wrote:I give my Wagons:

Deffrolla
1 Big Shoota
Red Paint Job
Armour Plates
Grot Riggers
Boarding Planks

All of the upgrades should be able to speak for themselves.

This. Add grabbin' claws if you got points to spare.

Than wall works best up to about 1850 points, after that your army's power doesn't increase as much for the point you spent. Larger point opponents also have an easier time killing all those kanz and boyz.

Battlewagon Bash doesn't become viable until 1500 points, but easily scales up to 2500 points.

grabba klaws are nice when you cna have them yes... but first I'd take a second big shoota I always run 2, since it is open top weapon destroyed aren't uncommon and for another 5 points per gun it has saved my wgaons maybe times from being immobalised on that second weapon destroyed

Well im going to upgrade my battle wagons with ard' case.

Don't. 'ard case is a 15 point upgrade to make your battlewagon worse.

What you get for 15 points:
+ you don't have +1 to the damage table
- you can no longer charge out of the wagon
- you have to use the three access points, forcing you to spread around the wagon when disembarking, and no disembarking from the front
- this also makes it close to impossible to embark large squads
- five models may shoot, limited to only two to one side or one out the back, as opposed to 20 in any direction.

'ard case is useful only in certain situations. Using it as a transport generally isn't one of them.

Now, I run my battlewagons a bit odd. I use 'ard Case, but the thing is, I don't normally assault out of them. I use one as a firing platform, and a place for my Big Mek to squat (it has a Killkannon) and the other is a transport for my small Meganobz squad, with Deffrolla, Wrekkin' Ball, Grabbin' claw and Boarding Plank. Basically, that's a close combat wagon, and my Meganobz aren't meant to get out unless it asplodes, which I generally don't want, since it's drivin' around doing d6 Str10, 4-5 Str9 hits, and immobilizing vehicles. the five fire ports are plenty for a combi-rokket or Skorcha or two, or to take pot shots with their shootas- but I wouldn't run it that way with more than a few Nobs or Meganobs in it.