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So I recently played a 1K doubles game in which I ran a henchmen list and the death cult assassins were brutal! I'm curious if they are really that good?

My list looked sort of like:

Coteaz

xenos inq. w/ rad & psych, PW

Henchmen w/ 6 DCA, 3 WA (attach xenos inq) in Rhino

Henchmen w/ 2 space moneys, 2 PC techies, 7 WA (attach Coteaz) in Chimera

2 Psyfledreads

Nemesis Dreadknight (trying to see if I can make this guy work) w/ greatsword & teleporter
*** Incidently - this guy does not work.... but see below for how I used it

I teamed with Chaos against dark eldar and Blood angels (it was friendly, generally we don't care about alliances in friendly games)

The blood angels had a 20-strong death company with jump pack squad led by Azaroth the Grim. They got whittled down to abotu 15 when I laid a trap - put the nemesis dreadknight out for the blood angels to assault and had my (now dismounted) DCA behind it ready to counter-assault.

He fell into my trap, assaulted the deadknight and killed it before anything could happen with Azaroth (that guy is sick!) I counter-assaulted with my DCA - and wiped the death Company to the man (Azaroth survived, in the coutner killed 3 WA and an assassin) . I won assault, he died.

At that point they gave up.

My question - are they really that good? I am cosnidering an Inq. henchmen list with a few of these glass cannon units.

Yes DCA are that good. You played them skillfully and set up for a counter assault and your opponent took the bait. That won't happen again however as now they know how powerful that unit is.

I have played assault henchmen in regular transports (chimera/rhino/razorback) and it is extremely difficult to do well, especially when your opponent knows how they work. They have no frag grenades, so assaulting into cover is dangerous and they have a 5++ and T3, which isn't much to work with defensively.

assault henchmen work best in a big squad (around 10) coming out of an assault vehicle, preferably a storm raven. I have wiped 3 BA assault squads in 1 multi assault using 6 DCA/4 crusaders out of a storm raven.

Just be aware that that unit is pure offensive and basically lacks any staying power against shooting whatsoever. Play them accordingly.

Yes they are really cheap and really effective in CC, alot of people just make henchmen spam lists.

And zipping your Dread knight was sound to bait the DC due to Black rage, the one downfall to our beautiful assault marines ;(

DCA suffer from only a few issues. LD8, no assault grenades, and t3 with a 5++ save makes them vulnerable to torrents of attacks.

All this is more or less fixed with an inquisitor attached. Now your LD10 stubborn, rad and psy nades with the hammerhand psyker upgrade make you effectively s6, the psynades can offset your lack of assault grenades on a decent roll, and the first s5 or lower hits can go onto the multiwound inq to keep you a little safer. Because you can also transport the DCA in an unstunable (more or less) rhino, you can also get where you need to go on the cheap. All in all the DCA with a little character support is a totally overpowering unit for almost no cost.

I put my DCA in a LRC. Fixes the problem with not having grenades, and fixes the problem of not being able to move and get out and assault. Its also more durable than the storm raven (excluding melta). You don't even need all that big a squad against most opponent, the number of attacks they get and the fact you can get them wound wound on 2s (rad grenades, hammerhand) just will murder anything they touch (short of wyches, which kill them pretty well). If there was anything to complain about in the GK book as being OP it would be DCA mixed with some crusaders (for the storm shields) with the INQ with grenades and hammer hand in a LRC. Its can be cheap compared to vanilla assault termies, and kill most infantry even better than they do.

notabot, what do the crusaders actually do for you, especially considering you have a LRC with grenades AND support characters?

DevianID wrote:notabot, what do the crusaders actually do for you, especially considering you have a LRC with grenades AND support characters?

Probably soak up hits, especially since the unit is likely to wipe whatever it charged and get shot at next turn.

Jackster wrote:

DevianID wrote:notabot, what do the crusaders actually do for you, especially considering you have a LRC with grenades AND support characters?

Probably soak up hits, especially since the unit is likely to wipe whatever it charged and get shot at next turn.

^^^This^^^

Those 3++ storm shields are there for a reason, and that is to give the squad some survivability, both against shooting and in close combat. Mixing together a squad of five crusaders and five death cult assassins gives you a squad that hits hard and can still absorb some damage.

I was wondering the same - I see a lot of people running the crusaders and am always thinking what the deal is with them. Ya, my guess is wound allocation. So a squad should be what? 6 DCA, 4 Crusaders?

7 DCA, 4 Crusaders and a Xenos Inq w/ rad grenades and hammerhand in a Crusader.

Commence demolition of everything and anything you touch.

And yes, they really are that broken.

L. Wrex

DCA are one of the most efficient units in CC, probably one of the more efficient in the entirety of the game. I always enjoy playing with them in a list.

I also sometimes see the DCA/crusader unit with a techmarine with rad & psychotroke grenades and a nemesis staff. Expensive, but it's happened to me more than once that I was able to wipe the whole squad with shooting, but that stupid techmarine with his 2+/2++ is still standing there.

Plus he bolsters a ruin for your dreads to stand inside.

I'm constructing an imperial inqusition army(NO-ONE EXPECTS THE IMPERIAL INQUISITION!) and my combat henchman are jesus in a can. 5, 6 dca, 4, 5 crusadors, and somone to carry the I-win-grenades and rad grenades. All packaged in a stormraven. This unit fears nothing. Combat henchmen laugh TH/SS termys off the pavement. I've multi-assaulted two 5-man units of TH/SS termies with these guys. I lost 2 crusadors. He lost 7 termies, failed moral, and was swept. Best part- I even rolled a one on my I-win-Grenades.

The only thing that can put any sort of real casulties on this unit is genestealers. This is mostly because the unit relies on the dca's int of 6 to go first and reduce the squad into peicemeal so they can't hit back. When something can hit just as fast as them, or emperor forbid, faster, then the unit loses a lot of its edge.

Shooting is a problem too. You still have those 3++ saves to hide behind, but against shooting, your dca's can't whittle the incoming hits down to nothing. Those stormshields have to weather the entire storm, and some stuff can force A TON of saves.

loota boy wrote:I'm constructing an imperial inqusition army(NO-ONE EXPECTS THE IMPERIAL INQUISITION!) and my combat henchman are jesus in a can. 5, 6 dca, 4, 5 crusadors, and somone to carry the I-win-grenades and rad grenades. All packaged in a stormraven. This unit fears nothing.

I've faced this unit three times in tournaments with my Eldar, and I'm not impressed. All three times I shot down the storm raven, then lit up the henchman unit with massed str6 shooting and/or destructor template shots. It's kind of a paper to the rock, but even if the unit did survive a turn of my shooting (which it hasn't so far), str3 and few grenades they can't really do much against a lot of grav tanks moving fast.

Only the techmarine is any kind of threat as far as I'm concerned. It's a strong unit against a lot of the armies out there, but anything with good antitank, more mobility, and a lot of flamers/massed fire will be able to handle it without getting sucked into a close combat.

That is the reason why you shouldn't really go with storm raven assault units. With AV 12 they just aren't resilient enough to survive the firepower coming at them. I prefer the LRC since its much more durable barring unfortunate accidents with meltas and the driver not being able to gauge distance... The fact that it can actually effectively screen as opposed to being on top of a clear plastic stick is another reason, almost equally important.

Raven is survivable as long as you run 2+, and have a GK Librarian to give them 3+ when they go full out. (And you should be going full out till you are disembarking, at which point the Raven has done its job) When you arent going first, reserve them.
LRs are slower and against lance or melta that everyone's packing these days they arent really much better off.

I run this at 1850:

Cotaez
Inquisitor

Techmarine - warding staff, blind, troke, rad grenades, 3 x servo skull

11 henchmen - 6 dca, 5 crusaders
11 henchmen - 3 servitor w/mm, 2 jokaero, 6 warriors, chimera w/ hf
11 henchmen - 3 servitor w/mm, 2 jokaero, 6 warriors, chimera w/ hf
5 GKSS - hammer, psycannon, razorback w/ psybolt ammo
5 GKSS - hammer, psycannon, razorback w/ psybolt ammo
5 GKSS - hammer, psycannon, razorback w/ psybolt ammo

LRC - mm
Dread - 2 x tlac, psybolt ammo
Dread - 2 x tlac, psybolt ammo

That is solid and kills peoples face off pretty regularly. DCA are a tough nut to crack out of the lrc.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

loota boy wrote:I'm constructing an imperial inqusition army(NO-ONE EXPECTS THE IMPERIAL INQUISITION!) and my combat henchman are jesus in a can. 5, 6 dca, 4, 5 crusadors, and somone to carry the I-win-grenades and rad grenades. All packaged in a stormraven. This unit fears nothing.

I've faced this unit three times in tournaments with my Eldar, and I'm not impressed. All three times I shot down the storm raven, then lit up the henchman unit with massed str6 shooting and/or destructor template shots. It's kind of a paper to the rock, but even if the unit did survive a turn of my shooting (which it hasn't so far), str3 and few grenades they can't really do much against a lot of grav tanks moving fast.

Only the techmarine is any kind of threat as far as I'm concerned. It's a strong unit against a lot of the armies out there, but anything with good antitank, more mobility, and a lot of flamers/massed fire will be able to handle it without getting sucked into a close combat.

I suppose it also has to do with where you are playing. Around my area, no-one plays eldar, save for one guy who just likes to mess around (lists like 2 wraithlords, warwalkers, scorpians, some rangers w/maugen ra and a few da units) I'd like to find a mechdar player though. Seems like a fun tactical exercise.

I would point that DCA are strength 4 and hammer-hand bumps that up to five

I have been running 4 henchmen squads

2X 6 DCA/3 crusaiders/3 melta accolytes
2X 6 Acroflagelants/3 crusaiders/3 melta accolytes

The DCA scare the crap out of people, and they always seem to under estimate the acros.

youbedead wrote:I would point that DCA are strength 4 and hammer-hand bumps that up to five

Whoops, that's good to know for the next time I see them. With massed attacks like that, they could bring down tanks that have rear armor 10, especially if they can get hammerhand off.

Also, with the addition of rad grenades, then they are essentially str 6 against non-tank units, so they wound most things on a 2 and up.

ha, bolter bait...

Flavius Infernus wrote:

youbedead wrote:I would point that DCA are strength 4 and hammer-hand bumps that up to five

Whoops, that's good to know for the next time I see them. With massed attacks like that, they could bring down tanks that have rear armor 10, especially if they can get hammerhand off.

The above is correct. I think when the guy said S6, he was probably taking the shortcut when you throw in the rad grenades and it's minus 1 toughness which is sorta like having an extra str on the charts though not quite the same I guess. T0 instant death? I'm still not sure what happens when that goes off.

Since I'm talking about playing against them with Mech Eldar, though, they're only str5 against grav tanks--and that's assuming they can get hammerhand to work on 3d6 against the runes of warding.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Since I'm talking about playing against them with Mech Eldar, though, they're only str5 against grav tanks--and that's assuming they can get hammerhand to work on 3d6 against the runes of warding.

My best mates loves to run his BA with dreadnaughts w/ blood talons or the other bloke elder mech which is exactly why all my DCA squads have 1 or 2 WA with meltas guns or bombs.

Toss in a librarian for might of titan for s6 2d6 penetration

Are DCA really that good? Well that depends on what army they are gong up against.

DCA against any MEQ army=Yes they really are that good. On I6 they hit on a 3+ wound on a 2+ with no armor save.

DCA against IG=No they are not good at all. On I6 they hit on a 3+ wound on a 2+ with no armor save killing a lowly guardsman, DCA wipe out the squad, and then the IG player hits them with a Chimera based heavy flamer + flashlights from guardsmen. They do a good job of killing guardsman in CC, but so does a 6 point ork boy. Power weapons and WS5 are expensive toys that are wasted on guardsman, and IG is exceptionally good at dumping mass wounds on T3 models.

DCA against Dark Eldar=They are not that great. Wyches are I6 also. If an equal amount of points worth of DCA + Crusaders goes up against an equal cost in wyches the winner would be whoever gets off the charge which is the DE because of fleet and open topped vehicles, with the exception being that DCA can not charge wyches that are in cover because they lack assault grenades. Add on top of that DE players tend to run multiple venoms which are exceptionally good at dumping mass wounds on troops like DCA.

DCA against Eldar=They are not that great. They can kill just about anything the eldar have in CC as long as DCA get the charge, but eldar are good at destroying transports. If DCA attempt to get to Eldar on foot they will likely get shredded by the eldar troops options of Dire avengers unloaded on bladestorm on them, or massed shuriken catapults from guardians. Even a land raider isn't safe. Fire dragons blow up a land raider, DCA jump out and shred the fire dragons, dire avengers bladestorm the DCA, and the Eldar player comes out of that exchange happy.

DCA against orks=They are not very good. Shoota boys will dakka them, Killa kans will stomp them, and when DCA get to charge the boys they might not have the volume of attacks required to finish the job. Granted a full squad of DCA can wreck a squad of boys that's twice their value, but it's easily countered. The value of DCA against orks is a moot point however if the army has a lot of purifiers. With purifiers as another option ork players are usually happy to see anything on the field but purifiers.

DCA against nids=They are not that good. With hammerhand+ rad grenades they can put a real hurt on TMC, but so can a lot of other GK units with hammerhand and a force weapon. The problem is just about every unit in the nid codex is good at killing DCA. Nids have a lot of short range dakka that dumps regular wounds that normally bounce off power armor. Nids are also really good at screwing with leadership 8 models.

DCA versus necrons or Tau=Yes they are that good, but so is the rest of your army. As a baseline you should be forcing a necron phase out or nearly wiping a tau player off the table.

In short DCA are only good against MEQ and bottom tier armies. Since most of the armies in the meta are MEQ that makes DCA exceptionally good against most armies, and not that great against non MEQ competitive armies. The end result is as a very specialized unit they are a balanced unit for their point cost.

Snickerdoodle wrote:I have been running 4 henchmen squads

2X 6 DCA/3 crusaiders/3 melta accolytes

How is that working for you? I am debating whether to do DCA + crusaders, or DCA, crusaders and melta accolytes. Ok, well I want one mystic to be one of the 12 guys for sure for my list, but I am not sure how I want to make up the other 11......

schadenfreude wrote:Are DCA really that good? Well that depends on what army they are gong up against.

DCA against Dark Eldar=They are not that great. Wyches are I6 also. If an equal amount of points worth of DCA + Crusaders goes up against an equal cost in wyches the winner would be whoever gets off the charge which is the DE because of fleet and open topped vehicles, with the exception being that DCA can not charge wyches that are in cover because they lack assault grenades. Add on top of that DE players tend to run multiple venoms which are exceptionally good at dumping mass wounds on troops like DCA.

DCA against orks=They are not very good. Shoota boys will dakka them, Killa kans will stomp them, and when DCA get to charge the boys they might not have the volume of attacks required to finish the job. Granted a full squad of DCA can wreck a squad of boys that's twice their value, but it's easily countered. The value of DCA against orks is a moot point however if the army has a lot of purifiers. With purifiers as another option ork players are usually happy to see anything on the field but purifiers.

Agree with most of what you said, but against DE they are really good against Incubi, who's only I5 and Wrecks because of PW.
Against orks, you can do okay with Rad and Psychotroke, plus a hammerhand or 2. Rad and Hammerhand/Might of Titan twice can insta-kill Nobs. Still not as great as purifiers, but it is something.
In all, DCA makes a good complement when running along with other GK units.