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Hello everybody, as I have just began 40k again after about 10 years of not having played warhammer and 40k I probably need a little help with this army I am trying to put together in 5th edition. I chose deathwing as this was one of my old armies I enjoyed back in the day, with the 5th edition I see they have become quite neat with their new assaulting rules and such.

I have read the new rulebook as well as most codices concerning AV of tank units etc.

For the list as it stands:


Belial, bolter and powersword - 130
Librarian, terminator armour/bolter/power weapon - 145

Unit 1 (Belials unit) - 270
Terminator bolter/Powerfist/Apothecary
Terminator bolter/powerfist/CML
Terminator th/ss
Terminator bolter/chainfist
Terminator Captain bolter/power sword

Unit 2 (Librarian's unit) - 240
Terminator bolter/Powerfist
Terminator bolter/powerfist/CML
Terminator th/ss
Terminator bolter/chainfist
Terminator Captain bolter/power sword

Unit 3 - 240
Terminator bolter/Powerfist
Terminator bolter/powerfist/CML
Terminator th/ss
Terminator bolter/chainfist
Terminator Captain bolter/power sword

Unit 4 -240
Terminator bolter/Powerfist
Terminator bolter/powerfist/CML
Terminator th/ss
Terminator bolter/chainfist
Terminator Captain bolter/power sword

Unit 5 - 235
Terminator bolter/Powerfist
Terminator bolter/powerfist/CML
Terminator th/ss
Terminator bolter/Powerist
Terminator Captain bolter/power sword


1500 points on the dot.


Comments:
As I fell in love with the deathwing assault rule I want to field a 1500 points all terminator army. The name of the game with these small and elite forces always was and is to protect your investment as I see it. This is the reason for the Librarian and the th/ss in each unit, providing quite a nice save against the mech shots such as Lascannons. Secondly as I see it the cyclones offer versatility in the game, and viewing most tanks grab the AV 11 in the side, combining them with deathwing assault I can see as quite neat. This also includes the rest of the force going with storm bolters, more shots before assaults = less units to fight against as I see it. Also having the captain retaining his normal power weapon instead of the chain fist gives me two possible strikes before the opponent can retaliate, thus reducing chances of casualties. Lastly the CML open up the last 30 points for putting in an apothecary granting one unit even more survivability.

Questions to you:
- Are the ss/th terminators worth putting in against a regular tactical termie just for the cause of Heavy fire?
- CML seem more versatile against most stuff, also looking at the deep strike mishap table, for example if I am put well out of range they will be still in the game even tho being terribly slow.
- Any changes to the list are really considered, but please provide me with tactical background on why to change these things.

thank you for reading ,

Mortaal

Give Belial the ss/th.
The librarian only has ld9 so is a bit of liability.

You'll want most termy squads to be something like 3ss/th and 2LC and then a CML. It just happens storm bolters are not going to do enough damage then looking towards cc this is the best option.
CML is cheap as chips.

Opinion is divided on whether you foot slog or deep strike. I would foot slog at this points total.

Termies need support. You lack fire power and mobility. So remove a squad and get some support. To quickly cover some options: Typhoons are cheap; 3 preds works well with the high av and good guns; shooty dreads can add something and fit well with the foot slogging.

Hope that is of some help .

Thanks for the reply MFletch,

I thought at this low point arrangement that a "shooty" force would be more viable than an assault one.

I know I lack support but as I am just starting out I figured just to open up with an all terminator force, seeing how it works and adjust accordingly. I think that Land Raiders eventually could also be a great addition as well as some lightning claw terminators to carry around and assault.

Thanks

more opinions and advice needed on my list before I start editing it again ^^

regards,

Storm bolter do not make a list shooty(sorry I will find a better word or if you can supply a nonenglish word and I will gladly use that.) The point is you march around your deathwing shooting 2 missiles and challenge enemies to get within charging distance. Running towards them fails as they can run away and targets that storm bolters shoot at are effected by what ever you have chosen to shoot the krak missiles at. At this point I should say always have the CML.

Sure play your list without support. You can probably win some objective games and if you are lucky with missiles and saves some annihilation. As you say you'll get a feel for it.

Landraiders are expensive and you already have limited models. Furthermore you can field only 3 which means you have huge targets and not much extra mobility.

The main reason not to have Landraiders is that preds are a great support option. They provide another ap1,2 target.

equip your squads with 3 TH/SS, 2LC.
Get rid of the librarian an you should have enough points for 2 land speeder typhoons
typhoons will do more damage than a single librarian


Automatically Appended Next Post:
equip your squads with 3 TH/SS, 2LC.
Get rid of the librarian an you should have enough points for 2 land speeder typhoons
typhoons will d more damage than a single librarian

Well I myself run squads with 2 TH&SS and the rest LC's and a CML. It works for me and I like it.

But I can also see the usefulness of some shooty squads. The CML can be used to drop 2 Templates(frag) which can add to number of wounds your squad could do. And lets face it that is really key to getting kills.

I do agree that you might be in some need of some support but that is totally up to you in the long run.

I run a squad of bikes in with my army to have those Tport Homers in there. Turbo first turn and drop half of my terminators right on them. Next turn should be able to assaullt , well hopefully anyways.

This is something I might run.

1500 Pts - Dark Angels Roster

HQ:
Belial, Master of the Deathwing (1#, 130 pts)
Lightning Claws (pair)

Troops:
Upgraded Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 290 pts)
Lightning Claws (pair) x2
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x2
Cyclone Missile Launcher
Apothecary
Standard Bearer
1 Sergeant Lightning Claws (pair)

Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 235 pts)
Lightning Claws (pair) x3
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
Cyclone Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 235 pts)
Lightning Claws (pair) x3
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
Cyclone Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 235 pts)
Lightning Claws (pair) x3
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
Cyclone Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

Fast Attack:
Ravenwing Attack Squadron (4#, 215 pts)
2 Bike Squad Plasma gun x2
1 Sergeant Power fist
Attack Bike Multi-melta

Ravenwing Support Squadron (1#, 75 pts)
Typhoon Missile Launcher; Multi-melta

Ravenwing Support Squadron (1#, 75 pts)
Typhoon Missile Launcher; Multi-melta

But all in all its your choice. I hope this helps you makes ome decisions. Good Luck!

MarineOmega wrote:equip your squads with 3 TH/SS, 2LC.
Get rid of the librarian an you should have enough points for 2 land speeder typhoons
typhoons will do more damage than a single librarian


Automatically Appended Next Post:
equip your squads with 3 TH/SS, 2LC.
Get rid of the librarian an you should have enough points for 2 land speeder typhoons
typhoons will d more damage than a single librarian

I might have missed something, but I'm pretty sure Typhoons aren't available to a DA Codex army... that said a Ravenwing Attack Squad is the same price as a librarian in power armor on that codex... though I'd say it depends on what you're fighting... if you're fighting something psyker heavy, like some Eldar lists, that librarian will be pretty useful

Actually typhoons are allowed and for only 75 pts too.

Thanks guys, really appreciate the advice, and I am currently looking into attack bikes as a sort of support in my list.

Ah, I see - I misunderstood the labeling. My apologies.

I would stay clear of attack bikes unless playing with sammael. I should explain my comments but this should be clear.

Explain your comments.

I use them and they do just fine for me. No they will not win the battle. No they are not going to get alot of kills.

They do offer support and a tport homer.

Sorry I will. It gives away an easy KP. You need a couple to run together to guarantee success then that means quite a few expensive bikes. I guess it is cheap way to get a second homer for your termies again it depends on how many your reserve - I like to teleport 2 squads close together so I would want 4 to come down with two homers which leaves 3 termy squads in reserve which is a lot. With Deathwing the attack bikes will be a nice target for antiinfantry weapons.

If you use Sammael then 2/3 of the time the simple bike is scoring and the whole army will be running away in KP scenario. By running away I am hit and run tactics which will suit the attack bike.

Yeah you are right with the KP. but as there is only one mission that uses KP's I am not sure it is that big of a deal. If they spend all there time to shoot at one lonely bike with 2 wounds then it is a win, win for me anyways. I would rathe have them shoot at the AB then my terms anyday. I pretty much use my AB as a suicide squad in a way anyways. Hope to get a kill or 2 then just pest them with it. Charging long fang/Devs is also nice as most of those units don't have PW's/PF's to worry about now marine have to wound it on a 5+ whihc givbes it some survivablity.

But I guess to each there own. I would rather have them be troops, but in 1.5K its too hard to get Belial and Sammael in the list.

At 1500 points, I followed some advice from here on Dakka a while ago:

Belial, 5 squads of termies, all with TH/SS and a cyclone missile launcher and 3 Land Speeders with Multi Meltas. It's just the best set up at this points level.

I've been mixing up the squads with 2 x LC and 3 x TH/SS in them but generally speaking, a 5 man squad all with TH/SS is just better simply because they last a lot longer. And they hit a lot harder. I've been using my current set up in friendly games proxying the LC Terminators as TH/SS Terminators and they just work better. I've not tried assaulting out of a LR and running them with a chaplain and banner where the Lightning Claws would probably make more of a difference but if you put 5 squads of Termies all with TH/SS on the table, at 1500 points, I really don't think that you need a LR.

As for the debate around the Land Speeders, they aren't very durable and they will probably get destroyed. Just accept this - use them as suicide units. They are cheap. Deploy them behind LOS blocking terrain or reserve them if you don't get first turn. Use them as three separate units. At 1500 points, you're not going to see that many things across the table that you really need meltas to take out so send all three of them after that unit - if you keep them safe for the first turn, they'll do their job. After that, anything else they do is a bonus and there's not much that Terminators with TH/SS and a cylcone can't handle.

When I eventually take the army above 1500 points, I'm going to look at adding Dreadnoughts and/or Vindicators to help plug some offensive gaps but something tells me that in this type of army, the more squads of Terminators with TH/SS and a cyclone missile launcher, the better I'll do. It's a bit boring and safe but so far, in my experience it really works. (obviously if you want 'Pure' Deathwing then you can't use Vindicators or even a Chaplain).

balsak_da_mighty wrote:Yeah you are right with the KP. but as there is only one mission that uses KP's I am not sure it is that big of a deal. If they spend all there time to shoot at one lonely bike with 2 wounds then it is a win, win for me anyways. I would rathe have them shoot at the AB then my terms anyday. I pretty much use my AB as a suicide squad in a way anyways. Hope to get a kill or 2 then just pest them with it. Charging long fang/Devs is also nice as most of those units don't have PW's/PF's to worry about now marine have to wound it on a 5+ whihc givbes it some survivablity.

But I guess to each there own. I would rather have them be troops, but in 1.5K its too hard to get Belial and Sammael in the list.

The range of the attack bike is such that it has to get into one of the bolter ranges. You crack a rhino and can be shot down next turn with bolters who would not do much against termies. That is fine but you can miss and die without taking out the transport. If you had two then they could be trusted with the task at hand but then you have bought 6 rather expensive bikes.

If they leave their heavy weapons that exposed then they will loose them.

ColdSadHungry wrote:At 1500 points, I followed some advice from here on Dakka a while ago:

Belial, 5 squads of termies, all with TH/SS and a cyclone missile launcher and 3 Land Speeders with Multi Meltas. It's just the best set up at this points level.

I've been mixing up the squads with 2 x LC and 3 x TH/SS in them but generally speaking, a 5 man squad all with TH/SS is just better simply because they last a lot longer. And they hit a lot harder. I've been using my current set up in friendly games proxying the LC Terminators as TH/SS Terminators and they just work better. I've not tried assaulting out of a LR and running them with a chaplain and banner where the Lightning Claws would probably make more of a difference but if you put 5 squads of Termies all with TH/SS on the table, at 1500 points, I really don't think that you need a LR.

As for the debate around the Land Speeders, they aren't very durable and they will probably get destroyed. Just accept this - use them as suicide units. They are cheap. Deploy them behind LOS blocking terrain or reserve them if you don't get first turn. Use them as three separate units. At 1500 points, you're not going to see that many things across the table that you really need meltas to take out so send all three of them after that unit - if you keep them safe for the first turn, they'll do their job. After that, anything else they do is a bonus and there's not much that Terminators with TH/SS and a cylcone can't handle.

When I eventually take the army above 1500 points, I'm going to look at adding Dreadnoughts and/or Vindicators to help plug some offensive gaps but something tells me that in this type of army, the more squads of Terminators with TH/SS and a cyclone missile launcher, the better I'll do. It's a bit boring and safe but so far, in my experience it really works. (obviously if you want 'Pure' Deathwing then you can't use Vindicators or even a Chaplain).

I don't see the 5 squads of terminators with TH/SS being the best set up. Its rather boring and easy to minipulate, IMHO. I do think there should be a main stay of terminators. Terminator just need support, thats all there is to it. Yes the speeders are support and they can work. But I am not sure really if that is enough. I don't leave home with out some ravenwing support its just not going to happen. They have helped me out soo many times and they will continue to do so I am sure. When I get first turn and scout with bikes, drop terminators down, move bikes to kill hard tanks(ie preds, vindies, hell even LRaiders) then even assault if I need to with auto hitting. Well I have to say its well worth those points. Again IMHO. Now I know this isn't going to work all the time and I don't expect it to. I sometimes outflank with them if need be. But that useally is at a bigger points level.

I use vindicators all the time. Two to be exact. I love them. They are great anti infantry, anti tank and all around fun to use. Again not really at this points level.

All I know is what has worked for me. Now it might be different for others and it might work even better for some. I don't know.

@MFletch: I do understand the range of a MM and the range of a bolter. I don't know why you are firing at a transport with that MM? I think the MM should be targeting harder targets like preds or other heavy support tanks. Of course you coukld miss. Everything and anything can miss in this game. Its all up to the dice. I don't feel I really have to worry about bolters firing as they still need 5+'s to wound and I still get my 3+ saves. And honestly if they are worried about one little attack bike then that is great! as I said before. I have to disagree with you on the bolters not doing anything to the terminators. I have lost more terminators to small arms fire then I have to heavy weapons. Most heavy weapons, like you have said have that chance to miss, and with only 1 for the most part in a squad. Seems to me I will take those odds. This is really just theory hammeringn anyways.

5 TH/SS looses against orks. That is why you add a few LC.

Actually they vulnerable to most true cc units without the LC. True against shooting units they will be better with the shields.

It is brave move not to take the multimelta upgrade but it works better with the missile launcher.

I run 5 th/ss because LC only work against orks but even that 4-6 orks attacking before you will not even deal enough wounds to kill 1. Depends on how many you kill. Let's be honest no matter what you charge into a mob of orks will die. Only units that can win in combat against orks are death company or beserkers. Other than that you just don't have enough men to win a combat against 30 orks and having a few LC is not gonna kill that nob with PK,

I just use TH/SS because the power weapon and powerfists are not gonna be killed by your LC so I will have a invl to deal with those power weapons.

It's up to you what you like but it's all about the same. It really matter if with who you fight and how lucky or un lucky you get.

I also add those chainfists because I am mad lol good vs dreadnoughts or land raiders that's about it. Since I have spare points I thought why not add the chainfists. 25 points is not gonna get me anything useful anyway.

My list is

Belial (forgot his name)th/ss giving termis apothercary and banner

5x squad of 4 with th/ss 1 with CML and chainfist
2xdreadnought in drop pod MM/HF

that's 1745 I think.

I like the dreads because they cause alot of damage when landing behind enermy lines but if you miss that MM against a tank you will be pissed lol

imagine me missing 3 turns trying to pop a landraider.

Orks are the borderline case.

Armies will try to engage you in a shoot out against your 10 missiles+2multimelta/heavyflamer.
Or starting with the orks they will engage you in cc. Orks are the tip of the iceberg. You get 10 attacks at I1 WS4 most cc units can hit harder and can out last you even with 3++.