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Everybody loves krak! Or not?

Has anyone tried krak grenades for each infantry squad instead of just a meltabomb for the sgt? I was discussing the possibilities of this in my blob movement tactics thread.

Can someone do the math hammer? 21 krack grenades vs 2 meltabombs in ideal fullstrength combat against an av12 walker(dread or armoured sent for example).

Is it worth it, for redundancy and insurance vs tarpitting? Sgts can die by a wide variety of methods, including forcing wounds or being shot from morale failure. Would everyone with krak solve this dilemma? Remember that really the meltagunners should be dealing with the walkers, and krak grenades for 2 inf squads costs 20pts as opposed to just 10pts for 2 meltabombs.

Also remember that death-by-glance removes the option of explosions killing most of your blob.

Without doing the mathhammer, against a dreadnought, it would simply take too long to glance it to death. I'd rather run a power blob with 31 guardsmen and give three sergeants meltabombs. They may need a 6 to hit, but they're going to have a FAR easier time getting through the armour.

Other than demo vets there is no easy way to take on a dread in CC. Maybe rough riders getting lucky, but ive never used them.

Even fists are crap, at only str6. Only thing which is good against a dread would be a priest or straken with their 'meltabomb' style CC attacks.

But lets say 21-31 krak attacks per round at 100% efficiency, thats approximately 5 hits at least, with around 1 glance, and 33% chance to immobilise or destroy a weapon meaning the following round of combat will be either easier to hit, or less incoming attacks

Meltabombs are really just there for those "Oh " moments. Ideally, dreadnoughts should be killed with extremem prejudice by a wall of meltaguns. But that's my take on assaulting a walked. I just avoid it all costs.

Yeah, me too haha. I actually never take meltabombs or krak grenades because i never have the points to spare. However it IS an interesting idea to investigate, as my opponents DO have dreads galore, i just havnt managed to get into CC with one yet. Well i did once, and it pwned me.. But nevermind.

I see many people's blob lists with meltabombs, that's why I am investigating it

I'm sure I did the maths and worked out that 2 melta bombs were far, far better than 10 krak grenades against almost all opponents. Plus, aside from the occassional Commissar Friendly Fire, you don't suffer diminishing returns from the sergeants up until it's far too late for it to really matter.

I think because of the wild-card of dice being so unreasonably strange, you could do wonders with just two meltabombs, or absolutely nothing for many rounds straight. However, have 11-21 krak grenades (if you took 1 squad worth, or two) allows for more 'luck' shenanigans to occur. The 'magnitude' of luck, as well as average rolls, increases. Getting 'lucky' with 3 krak grenades will take out the weapons, and immobilise a dreadnaught.

So, due to the luck factor as well, it's hard to quantify anything in 40k really. But just like most people on this forum say that autocannons are better than other options, mostly for the number of shots, does that theory not mean anything here? Autocannons are sub-par for the most part, and only glance/penetrate 16.6% more often than krak grenades would. Is that then the equivalent of 11 autocannon shots, -16.6 efficiency, against the dreadnaughts?

Most dreads will squash maybe 4 guardsmen and which ever option you'll take it down. Unless it has blood talons, then all bets are off. Meltabombs can take out av14 by the way.

When not a powerfist? You get to hit twice not just once and you can take out monsters. Monsters tend to be limited in attacks, though the attacks tend to be amazing, so charging a squad of 50 in is not too crazy.

Marines need to remember their krak grenades and I would never take them for Black templars.

Well, here's some Mathhammer:

Krak:

Assaulting Vs Vehicles

30 Guardsmen vs Dreadnought

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

30 Guardsmen
Attacks: 30
Hit Chance: 16.67%
Hits: 5
Glancing Chance: 16.67%
Penetration Chance: 0%
Glancing Hits: 0.833
Shaken: 0.417
Stunned: 0.139
Weapon Destroyed: 0.139
Immobilized: 0.139
Options: Hit On 6

-----------------------------

Defenders

Dreadnought
Hits: 5
Glancing Hits: 0.833
Results
Shaken: 0.417
Stunned: 0.139
Weapon Destroyed: 0.139
Immobilized: 0.139


-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

Meltabombs:

Assaulting Vs Vehicles

3 Sgts with Meltabombs vs Dreadnought

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

3 Sgts with Meltabombs
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 16.67%
Hits: 0.5
Glancing Chance: 8.33%
Penetration Chance: 83.33%
Glancing Hits: 0.042
Penetration Hits: 0.417
Shaken: 0.09
Stunned: 0.076
Weapon Destroyed: 0.076
Immobilized: 0.076
Wrecked: 0.069
Explodes: 0.069
Options: Hit On 6, 2d6

-----------------------------

Defenders

Dreadnought
Hits: 0.5
Glancing Hits: 0.042
Penetration Hits: 0.417
Results
Shaken: 0.09
Stunned: 0.076
Weapon Destroyed: 0.076
Immobilized: 0.076
Wrecked: 0.069
Explodes: 0.069


-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

MFletch wrote:Most dreads will squash maybe 4 guardsmen and which ever option you'll take it down. Unless it has blood talons, then all bets are off. Meltabombs can take out av14 by the way.

When not a powerfist? You get to hit twice not just once and you can take out monsters. Monsters tend to be limited in attacks, though the attacks tend to be amazing, so charging a squad of 50 in is not too crazy.

Marines need to remember their krak grenades and I would never take them for Black templars.

Blob squads cant get PF.
I destroyed a Brass Scorpion and 2 Defilers with a full blob with 5 melta bombs in my last Apoc game.
So yea, melta bombs.

And against AV13 walkers or the odd vehicle? how good does krak fare?

Jackster wrote:

MFletch wrote:Most dreads will squash maybe 4 guardsmen and which ever option you'll take it down. Unless it has blood talons, then all bets are off. Meltabombs can take out av14 by the way.

When not a powerfist? You get to hit twice not just once and you can take out monsters. Monsters tend to be limited in attacks, though the attacks tend to be amazing, so charging a squad of 50 in is not too crazy.

Marines need to remember their krak grenades and I would never take them for Black templars.

Blob squads cant get PF.
I destroyed a Brass Scorpion and 2 Defilers with a full blob with 5 melta bombs in my last Apoc game.
So yea, melta bombs.

I thought they could take a commissar. Must of been thinking about the Lords.

Anyone take priests?

MFletch wrote:

Jackster wrote:

MFletch wrote:Most dreads will squash maybe 4 guardsmen and which ever option you'll take it down. Unless it has blood talons, then all bets are off. Meltabombs can take out av14 by the way.

When not a powerfist? You get to hit twice not just once and you can take out monsters. Monsters tend to be limited in attacks, though the attacks tend to be amazing, so charging a squad of 50 in is not too crazy.

Marines need to remember their krak grenades and I would never take them for Black templars.

Blob squads cant get PF.
I destroyed a Brass Scorpion and 2 Defilers with a full blob with 5 melta bombs in my last Apoc game.
So yea, melta bombs.

I thought they could take a commissar. Must of been thinking about the Lords.

Anyone take priests?

commisars cannot take fists, lords can
priests are IC's and you never want them in the front of the group.

MFletch wrote:

Jackster wrote:

MFletch wrote:Most dreads will squash maybe 4 guardsmen and which ever option you'll take it down. Unless it has blood talons, then all bets are off. Meltabombs can take out av14 by the way.

When not a powerfist? You get to hit twice not just once and you can take out monsters. Monsters tend to be limited in attacks, though the attacks tend to be amazing, so charging a squad of 50 in is not too crazy.

Marines need to remember their krak grenades and I would never take them for Black templars.

Blob squads cant get PF.
I destroyed a Brass Scorpion and 2 Defilers with a full blob with 5 melta bombs in my last Apoc game.
So yea, melta bombs.

I thought they could take a commissar. Must of been thinking about the Lords.

Anyone take priests?

Regular Commissars can have powerfists, but only if they're in a CCS or PCS.

So theres almost 28% chance of something good happening with krak, compared to the barely 15% using melta. Thats with 30 kral vs 3 melta though. Its obviously a scalar factor though.

Interesting! Thanks for the math hammering


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Av13 walkers and landraiders are immune to krak grenades, but almost all other vehicles are in danger from 30 krak grenades to their rear armour.. Lol

Piz wrote:

MFletch wrote:

Jackster wrote:

MFletch wrote:Most dreads will squash maybe 4 guardsmen and which ever option you'll take it down. Unless it has blood talons, then all bets are off. Meltabombs can take out av14 by the way.

When not a powerfist? You get to hit twice not just once and you can take out monsters. Monsters tend to be limited in attacks, though the attacks tend to be amazing, so charging a squad of 50 in is not too crazy.

Marines need to remember their krak grenades and I would never take them for Black templars.

Blob squads cant get PF.
I destroyed a Brass Scorpion and 2 Defilers with a full blob with 5 melta bombs in my last Apoc game.
So yea, melta bombs.

I thought they could take a commissar. Must of been thinking about the Lords.

Anyone take priests?

Regular Commissars can have powerfists, but only if they're in a CCS or PCS.

Which is where you dont want them to be...

kyranzor wrote:So theres almost 28% chance of something good happening with krak, compared to the barely 15% using melta. Thats with 30 kral vs 3 melta though. Its obviously a scalar factor though.

Not only that, but you're now paying 30 points compared to 15. Spending 15 points is fairly justifiable in a guard list - eg, I'll downgrade a couple of special weapons. When you start paying 30 odd points though, it gets to the point of "this is starting to get near the cost of more troops."

As a side note, for funsies while attacking in planetstrike, take the 'give d3 units meltabombs' strategem with a blob squad and laugh! I managed to destroy 2/3rds of a fortress of redemption with a 50 man squad (I had already occupied the last one). The resultant explosions killed 18 guardsmen, then the dangerous terrain killed another 12.

I may have had the 'reinforcements' strategem on the unit too.... By the end of the game, I had killed more of my guardsmen than my opponent had.

Why I take meltabombs? 30 man blob 3 meltabombs on segeants nice and easy.

30 man blob - krak grenades on 10 maybe 20 of the blob (too expensive for all of them). Which one's have krak grenades? Are they modelled? Which one's are in b2b with the target? Wound allocation, who goes?

Melta bombs is just easier to manage, especially when the mathhammer is only slightly one way or t'other ...

30 men with krak grenades cost 30 points
melta bombs cost 5

take more meltabombs, not krak grenades that don't work against some targets.

Jackster wrote:

MFletch wrote:Most dreads will squash maybe 4 guardsmen and which ever option you'll take it down. Unless it has blood talons, then all bets are off. Meltabombs can take out av14 by the way.

When not a powerfist? You get to hit twice not just once and you can take out monsters. Monsters tend to be limited in attacks, though the attacks tend to be amazing, so charging a squad of 50 in is not too crazy.

Marines need to remember their krak grenades and I would never take them for Black templars.

Blob squads cant get PF.
I destroyed a Brass Scorpion and 2 Defilers with a full blob with 5 melta bombs in my last Apoc game.
So yea, melta bombs.

The Krak grenades helped too I imagine.

It was hilarious to see though. And the Blob survived, with the Commissar and 1 sergeant. 2 real BAMFs

Grey Templar wrote:

Jackster wrote:

MFletch wrote:Most dreads will squash maybe 4 guardsmen and which ever option you'll take it down. Unless it has blood talons, then all bets are off. Meltabombs can take out av14 by the way.

When not a powerfist? You get to hit twice not just once and you can take out monsters. Monsters tend to be limited in attacks, though the attacks tend to be amazing, so charging a squad of 50 in is not too crazy.

Marines need to remember their krak grenades and I would never take them for Black templars.

Blob squads cant get PF.
I destroyed a Brass Scorpion and 2 Defilers with a full blob with 5 melta bombs in my last Apoc game.
So yea, melta bombs.

The Krak grenades helped too I imagine.

It was hilarious to see though. And the Blob survived, with the Commissar and 1 sergeant. 2 real BAMFs

Most just missed and bounced. The problem was I cant get enough guys with krak into combat.

Yeah, well seeing as the Sgts are the main 'lets get into combat!' guys, they would be the best to have the grenades too. Okay, so lets finalise it - It's POSSIBLY doable, but melta is just easier.

Thanks for all the discussion guys!