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I was wondering wether TL lascannons are better than las/plasma or vice versa.

cheers

may the emperor be with u

Well, players prefer the combo lascannon + tl plasma gun which has several advantages over tl lascannon:
- lascannon has BS 4 so that twin-linking is not a big issue.
- 'weapon destroyed' result does not make the Razorback a steel coffin without a gun.
- two shots at 24'' or three shots at 12'', instead of just one shot.
- same pt costs.

A twin linked BS 4 weapon has a 33% higher hit rate than a non twin linked weapon, I wouldnt say thats "not a big issue"
In order to get those 2-3 shots you need not only be within 24-12" you must also remain stationary (assuming non BA).

If you are playing BA then always go for the LasPlas, if you are playing anything else then they both have their pros and cons. But the Lasplas is still most often the better choice.
It would help to know how the rest of your list looks like tho.

Non TL BS4 is 66%. TL BS4 is 87%. That is a 21% increase, not 33%.

TL on BS4 is not as worthwhile as another weapon imo.

i go las/plas personally .. only pain is you have to model the things yourself since razerbacks have option for a lascannon or heavy bolter... but they do sell plasmegun 5 packs for little over 8 bucks so not to expensive

Dracos wrote:Non TL BS4 is 66%. TL BS4 is 87%. That is a 21% increase, not 33%.

TL on BS4 is not as worthwhile as another weapon imo.

(8/9) / (2/3) = 4/3 = 1,333 A TL has a 33% higher hitrate than a non TL weapon

The TL extra % hit chance of 21% is a 31.8% increase on the original.

Hitting is one thing, wounding is another.
With a las/plas Razorback, you have a good chance to wound 3 Termies that are within 12''. Nice prospective.

So.
Much.
Wrong.
Math.

There is an added 22.222% chance to hit.

A TL BS4 weapon has an overall 88.888% chance to hit. You find this by taking the base chance to hit(66.666%, or 2/3) and subtacting that from 1 whole(or 100%) getting 33.333%(or 1/3).

That is the percentage chance you have to miss with the first roll.

You then take your percentage to hit and multiply it by the Percentage to miss.

This is your chance to get a hit on the re-roll; which is, coincidentally, also the increase to your overall chances to hit.

The addition of your base chance to hit and your chance to hit on the re-roll gives you your overall chance to hit with a TL weapon.

The formula in this case is: 1/3*2/3= increased chance to hit; or 2/9, or .22222, or 22.222%

So.
Much.
Wrong.
Math.

There is an added 22.222% chance to hit.

True! Stop the math now.

Kommissar Kel wrote:So.
Much.
Wrong.
Math.

There is an added 22.222% chance to hit.

A TL BS4 weapon has an overall 88.888% chance to hit. You find this by taking the base chance to hit(66.666%, or 2/3) and subtacting that from 1 whole(or 100%) getting 33.333%(or 1/3).

That is the percentage chance you have to miss with the first roll.

You then take your percentage to hit and multiply it by the Percentage to miss.

This is your chance to get a hit on the re-roll; which is, coincidentally, also the increase to your overall chances to hit.

The addition of your base chance to hit and your chance to hit on the re-roll gives you your overall chance to hit with a TL weapon.

The formula in this case is: 1/3*2/3= increased chance to hit; or 2/9, or .22222, or 22.222%

So.
Much.
Im.
Better.
Than.
You.
Attitude.
Yet.
So.
Little.
Reading.
Comprehension.
Here.

Division is grade school math, you really shouldnt get up on your high horse because you think you know it better than others. It simply makes you look like an when its shown that you were no more mathematically correct than those you were trying to correct...

If one weapon hits with 8 out of 9 shots and another weapon hits 2 out of 3 times then the weapon that hits 8/9 times is (8/9) / (2/3) = 4/3 times better than the other weapon at generating hits. That is really the thing that is interesting. By doing it your way you dont really say much about how effective the weapons are compared to each other. Which incidently is what this thread is about.

If you have a weapon with a 2% chance of hitting and compare it to a weapon with a 4% chance of hitting then you would say that the second weapon has a 2% higher chance of hitting. However, since it s a comparsion between the two weapons I would say that one weapon has a 100% higher hit rate compared to the other.

Now tell me, which way of presenting the numbers do you actually think provides the most useful information?

Giving the actual hit rate is more useful. You can only use the % increase in hit rate when comparing the TL against its non-TL self. The actual hit rate can be used to compare across multiple items to find many other useful statistics.

Dracos wrote:Giving the actual hit rate is more useful. You can only use the % increase in hit rate when comparing the TL against its non-TL self. The actual hit rate can be used to compare across multiple items to find many other useful statistics.

Not really sure what other statistics that can be compared with actual hit rates that can not be compared with a relative hit rate. Would you mind giving me an example?
Either way, the discussion here arose when Wustenfux said that the Lascannon is BS 4 so TL isnt really a big deal. Persoanlly Id say that´s comparing a TL version to a non TL version. No one is arguing over the extra benefit of the TL-PG...
Anyway, not trying to derail this thread into a flame fest.

So that the OP doesnt have to go trough all the numbers (unless he/she wants), the consensus is that the LasPlas is usually better

For instance, if you are calculating average numbers of glancing and pen hits, its more useful to have the actual hit value. That way the weapon has its own to hit value rather than relying on calculating the numbers for the base weapon.

Also, it shows what you are actually buying.

I.E
0.67 lascannon hits/phase + X {X=0,1,2}*0.89 plasmagun hits/phase
vs
0.89 Lascannon hits/phase

Dracos wrote:For instance, if you are calculating average numbers of glancing and pen hits, its more useful to have the actual hit value.

Also, it shows whaty ou are actually buying.

I.E
0.66 lascannon hits/phase + X {X=0,1,2}*0.88 plasmagun hits/phase
vs
0.88 Lascannon hits/shot.

This first part is just as doable with relative numbers, its actually a little easier since you simply have to multiply one value with the relative difference. Ill conceed the second point tho.

Except the first part is only doable if you already have to lascannon numbers. If you want to Compare a TL lascannon to a TL assault cannon, for example, you need to do the lascannon first if you only have the TL lascannon numbers relative tot he lascannon.

The only time when you need the % increase number is when you are comparing the TL verson of a weapon to the non-TL version. I don't think there are many situations where you would ever do that.

Wait, how do I get a poll on so people can vote/

It really depends on the situation. Some lists really need their lascannons to hit and some need the extra plasma shots.

dreadknightl wrote:Wait, how do I get a poll on so people can vote/

Ack! Please don't do a poll. This isn't a popularity contest, and the most popular choice isn't necessarily right.

IMHO polls are the most useless things in the tactics forum. How about reasoned arguments rather than votes?

Incedentally, the math on percent increase is correct. But the increased chance of hitting, I think, needs to be tempered by considerations like range, number of shots, and added durability.

Blood Angels: Always take las/plas, IMO
Vanilla: I prefer twin las as I find the tanks are ALWAYS moving and the increased accuracy helps. I also tend to keep my Razors at max distance and seldom find myself in the 12" sweet spot for the plasma.

However, try both and see what works best for you. That is always the best course of action. Once you have found your favorite, run with it.

Or, best of both worlds, magnetize or pin the weapon mount and that way you can do whichever you feel like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I agree with FLavius. Running polls is an abject waste of time on damn near any topic in the tactics section.

i run a space wolves bjorn army, and I use razorbacks for transport with lascannons, but i was wonderiing if las/plasma would ne better

Reecius has got it pretty well, I am an big advocate of trying everything a few times you never know what might work, but from a purly tactical point what you give it depends on what you're doing with the razorbacks, if you're using them to get your Grey Hunters to the front then the Las/Pas might work well, since as you get closer you get more shots, but you keep the nice AT for when you need it. but if they are for fire support then TL lascannon all the way, since you probaly wouln't be able to even use the pasma gun.

LC/PG is a good combo, it's like the LC/PG MSU everyone run back in last edition, only now more durable and mobile.
Having two weapons is a big advantage. with 1 TL, a single weapon destroy and your razor has nothing to shoot.
Also makes it harder to glance you to death, so you fare better against low end AT weapons. (takes 4 weapon destroy/immobilize as suppose to 3 to kill you)

Dracos wrote:Except the first part is only doable if you already have to lascannon numbers. If you want to Compare a TL lascannon to a TL assault cannon, for example, you need to do the lascannon first if you only have the TL lascannon numbers relative tot he lascannon.

The only time when you need the % increase number is when you are comparing the TL verson of a weapon to the non-TL version. I don't think there are many situations where you would ever do that.

The only difference between the methods is how you chose to present them. The math really is the same. So its kinda like tomato, tomaato. Not really the point of this thread, nor the forum so Im going to stop posting about that now.

Jackster wrote:LC/PG is a good combo, it's like the LC/PG MSU everyone run back in last edition, only now more durable and mobile.
Having two weapons is a big advantage. with 1 TL, a single weapon destroy and your razor has nothing to shoot.
Also makes it harder to glance you to death, so you fare better against low end AT weapons. (takes 4 weapon destroy/immobilize as suppose to 3 to kill you)

While I do agree that having two weapons is a rather big advantage I must say that I seldom find my RBs glanced to death no matter whether they have LasPlas or a TL-LC. If you do get glanced to death by low strenght weapons then that means you are close to the enemy so the LasPlas would be a better choice anyway. However, the TLAC might be worth considering in that case.

tedurur wrote: Either way, the discussion here arose when Wustenfux said that the Lascannon is BS 4 so TL isnt really a big deal. Persoanlly Id say that´s comparing a TL version to a non TL version. No one is arguing over the extra benefit of the TL-PG...

Well, I generally consider every (average) statistical result which is above 50% as being feasible. In case of BS 4, I do not really care about twin-linking.

Twinlinked Lascannons vs Las/Plas is always going to be a topic of discussion. Basically it comes down to what the rest of your army has, and what the role of the razorback is. If you're only using the lascannon to hunt AV14 then i'd say go TL. You really want it to hit, and the plasmagun wont do crap anyhow, ie wasting your precious plasmashots. If its intended to pick out hard to kill models with higher save, i'd say go las/plas. Las/plas on "most" targets (below av14) has more destructive potential (ie can hit 3 s7+ hits over 1 with regular lascannon)-

dreadknightl wrote:i run a space wolves bjorn army, and I use razorbacks for transport with lascannons, but i was wonderiing if las/plasma would ne better

I think this would be good to go for the las/plas to get into a midrange shoot out.

Though twin las goes well with missile launcher longfangs. The twin part is good as it really take pressure off the fangs: they do not need to carry lascannons themselves and it lets them sometimes fire frags.

Ok, what about between assault cannons/Tl lascannon/ lascannon and TL plasma?

dreadknightl wrote:Ok, what about between assault cannons/Tl lascannon/ lascannon and TL plasma?

Assault cannon is a different story, 4 shots, 3 hits (or 2), and eventually one die showing a 6 when it comes to wounding. Its an allround weapon, while tl las or las + tl plas are anti-tank and anti-heavy-infantry.

Same goes for using Assault Cannons on your Razors. It all comes down to what you use it for and what the rest of your army looks like. Some people use lascannons on long fangs for AT, which means that a dakka razor with assault cannon is viable. IMHO Assault Cannons are awesome, but for me i really want my razors to be AT, which means i don't use them, but they're still a great choice, especially against horde armies.