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Hi all

so I recently played my first game of 40K in about 2 years, and it was tremendous fun but my space marines were a little dissapointing

Its the first time I have ever played marines and I had high hopes for them... but they took a beating from Imperial Guard and then a severe beating from Eldar.

it was small 600 point games and here is what I deployed:

HQ-
Space Marine Captain
with bolter, power sword and digital weapons
-125pts

ELITES-
Terminator sqaud(5)
-200pts

Dreadnought with multi-melta
-105pts


TROOPS-

tactical Marine Sqaud (9 marines 1 seargents)
1 flamer
1 missile launcher
-170pts

could anyone suggest a better way to spend 600pts, and perhaps help me with next weeks challenge... a 1K Imperial Fists army

many thanks

Mark

Swap out the Terms for assault. Get TH/SS, and a claw or two.
The captain isn't great, so swap it out for a Librarian. Put him in Term too, and use Gate to jump the squad around.

[Rethink: As mentioned below, GoI is for shooty Terms, so don't follow both comments at the same time.]

I will assume that since you were playing 600pts you only had to have a single HQ and troop selection.

Dreads work well under 1k points as there is very little to be thrown at them. For the termies I might suggest going with hammernators. As for the captain, I would suggest Relic Blade, Artificer Armor, Storm Shield, and maybe digital weapons if you have a few points left over. A bit more pricey, but can throw down some serious hate in CC.

Also, if it looks like the environment is fairly low mech, a scout squad with snipers and cloaks would make a good addition to your list. The scouts can hang back and hold a home objective while providing long range fire, don't expect them to work many miracles though.

Edit: Ninja'd.

@Skinnereal: Gate+Assaulty units doesn't work very well as you have to stand around and get shot. Gate is far superior for shooting units.

TH&SS Termies needs a ride so at low pts its "better" to use Tactical Termies.

Anyway, do you have any other models or is the AoBR the only models you have? If so, there really isnt much to do. 600pts is too little pts really

this is a nice little post/thread that will help you get back into the game bro

A good question is, what do you have? I'd love to recommend things like Typhoon or MM/HF speeders, derp pods, rifleman dreads (great for those pesky eldar ) etc, but I and most good posters would rather give you advice you can follow, not "go spend $100+ on stuff to make your army playable".

Also, find out right away what your opponents units are capable of. Since it seems like you don't have any transports, IG can ruin your day with the list you posted with a single 150p leman russ. Find out what the enemy has thats going to hurt you. things that can throw lots of str5 or higher shots at you (like warwalkers with two scatter lasers), or ap1/2/3 weapons, or close combat weapons that ignore armor saves (power weapons, lightning claws etc) can ruin a marine players day if you aren't aware of them. Marines die horribly to 2 things generally- things that make you roll lots and lots of armor saves (30 of da boyz!), or simply ignore your armor (leman russ battle cannon) are what your small elite force needs to be wary of.

Also, welcome back guy

Jihallah wrote:this is a nice little post/thread that will help you get back into the game bro

A good question is, what do you have? I'd love to recommend things like Typhoon or MM/HF speeders, derp pods, rifleman dreads (great for those pesky eldar ) etc, but I and most good posters would rather give you advice you can follow, not "go spend $100+ on stuff to make your army playable".

Also, find out right away what your opponents units are capable of. Since it seems like you don't have any transports, IG can ruin your day with the list you posted with a single 150p leman russ. Find out what the enemy has thats going to hurt you. things that can throw lots of str5 or higher shots at you (like warwalkers with two scatter lasers), or ap1/2/3 weapons, or close combat weapons that ignore armor saves (power weapons, lightning claws etc) can ruin a marine players day if you aren't aware of them. Marines die horribly to 2 things generally- things that make you roll lots and lots of armor saves (30 of da boyz!), or simply ignore your armor (leman russ battle cannon) are what your small elite force needs to be wary of.

Also, welcome back guy

this is great stuff man thanks

i got some cash to spare atm and just purchasedanother squad of terms and another squad of tactical marines... only because i got em both brand new for £20 all in. so about half price.

but what should i be looking to get next to try and widen my forces ability?

i was thinking scouts with snipers (as above suggested)

and maybe some FA units.. but which ones?

say i was going to purchase 2 or 3 new items... what do you think would be a smart direction to go in?

Ok so scout snipers, lets say you have 5 of them. statistically, with bs3, 50% will hit. With poisoned weapons, your always going to wounds on a 4+. So 50% will wound. 1 in 4 shots will wound. 5 snipers.

yeah... kinda crappy.

I'd suggest two razorbacks. DO NOT GLUE THE WEAPON/HATCH ON TOP. The sprue comes with the hatches for a rhino, and the weapon mount for a razorback. If you don't glue them on, you can use that model as a razorback OR a rhino. For the same price. But If you've got two tac squads, I'd recommend a ride for each of them. The metal box protects your marines- a plasma gun can't shoot inside, a battlecannon can't shoot inside etc. a mob of da boyz charging your rhino will probably blow it with a PK nob, and then you can rapid fire them into the dirt, as they are (depending on the mob size) probably going to take some casualties themselves from the explosion. They need to open your rhino up to get at the sweet chewy goodness thats inside- It will make your tac squads MUCH more survivable.

If your going FA, I'd point you towards speeders. I like Typhoons myself, as for 90 points a pop, they just pour out firepower. you can move 12" and shoot either 2 krak missiles, or 2 frag missiles and the heavy bolter at infantry, since frags missiles are str 4 they are defensive weapons I almost never leave home without a pair of them myself. I like to operate them together on one flank, or one on each. They are just plain awesome for getting side armor shots and opening up enemy transports and tanks.

Now, did you buy tactical terminators or CC terminators? The two popular loadouts for CC terms are all TH/SS, or 2-3 TH/SS and the rest lightning claws. All TH/SS is like a rock-2+ save with a 3++ invul is tough as nails. The downside is you swing last, but when you do swing, it WILL hurt the lightning claws go at their initiative, and are good for chopping up infantry, but cannot hurt vehicles or reliably hurt most MC's. If you got tactical terminators, I'd recommend the cyclone. With what we've got so far, the army is fairly short ranged, and this will help with some long range firepower, compare to the assault cannons 24".

Great stuff mate!

much appreciated

Jihallah wrote:Ok so scout snipers, lets say you have 5 of them. statistically, with bs3, 50% will hit. With poisoned weapons, your always going to wounds on a 4+. So 50% will wound. 1 in 4 shots will wound. 5 snipers.

yeah... kinda crappy.

Otherwise I agree with the rest of your post. However this out of context. Sure they are worst the bolters against orks.

But 1 in 4 will wound! This can be your monster/mephiston killer. They also are snipers so this will be your termy killer as well. They have 36'' range so they will become you ranged antiinfantry option.

5th edition means troops badly need transportation. Go for the 'back/rhino suggested above.

You should have no problem against imperial fists. He should spend 200 pts on an awful HQ choice so you have the advantage.

For FA please do not go with venguard or assault marines. Space marines do not do cc they can take a single squad of assault termies for when you really need to.

MFletch wrote:

Jihallah wrote:Ok so scout snipers, lets say you have 5 of them. statistically, with bs3, 50% will hit. With poisoned weapons, your always going to wounds on a 4+. So 50% will wound. 1 in 4 shots will wound. 5 snipers.

yeah... kinda crappy.

Otherwise I agree with the rest of your post. However this out of context. Sure they are worst the bolters against orks.

But 1 in 4 will wound! This can be your monster/mephiston killer. They also are snipers so this will be your termy killer as well. They have 36'' range so they will become you ranged antiinfantry option.

5th edition means troops badly need transportation. Go for the 'back/rhino suggested above.

You should have no problem against imperial fists. He should spend 200 pts on an awful HQ choice so you have the advantage.

For FA please do not go with venguard or assault marines. Space marines do not do cc they can take a single squad of assault termies for when you really need to.

thanks a lot for this!


Captain Lysander with a 3+ invunerable save and the strength 10 fist of Dorn aint to be sniffed at,
was thinking about going imperial fists myself... in the future not against the other Imperial Fists

any thoughts on that?

MFletch wrote:

Jihallah wrote:Ok so scout snipers, lets say you have 5 of them. statistically, with bs3, 50% will hit. With poisoned weapons, your always going to wounds on a 4+. So 50% will wound. 1 in 4 shots will wound. 5 snipers.

yeah... kinda crappy.

Otherwise I agree with the rest of your post. However this out of context. Sure they are worst the bolters against orks.

But 1 in 4 will wound! This can be your monster/mephiston killer. They also are snipers so this will be your termy killer as well. They have 36'' range so they will become you ranged antiinfantry option.

And I would disagree with a "whoop de doo dah day" to scout snipers, when I have the choice of sternguard. MC's? have some hellfire rounds buddy! Oh, you spent the points on your Tyrant to give it a 2+? Good thing I'm packing combimelta/plas! And a 5 man squad getting 2.5 hits on average and rending on a 6 is not what I call terminator killers. You might pluck the occasional terminator with a rending hit, but again plasma, vindicators, even meltaguns in a pinch are far more reliable than a 6+ rend on a bs3 model. 1 in 4 wounds will wound out of my 2.5 hits! Wooo! They can be a neat squad because they can cap a backfield objective and be a nuisance, but they ain't doing no heavy lifting for me. Call me weird, please feel free to, but I prefer the reliable option vs the pray to the dice gods option

edinburgh40kgamer wrote:Captain Lysander with a 3+ invunerable save and the strength 10 fist of Dorn aint to be sniffed at,
was thinking about going imperial fists myself... in the future not against the other Imperial Fists

any thoughts on that?

He is a beatstick, and he does lay the beatdown good an' proper, but some people do sniff at him. People look to their SM commanders for a force multiplier, for example a librarian with null zone and CC terminators, so models that DO get a save against your TH/LC's have to reroll their save. I cannot remember the math off the top of my head, but I believe null zone puts a storm shields 3++ (which is a nasty invulnerable save) from a 66.66% chance of saving to just under 50% chance of saving, which can make a huge difference. Against a 4++ or 5++, again the math isn't in my head and I'm about to hit the hay, but when I play daemons I call it plain mother en' nasty! Another force multiplier that popular is Vulkan He'stan, since he makes all your melta and flamer weaponry twin linked ( ) and makes your TH's master crafted. Other people who want to do a bike army take a captain on a bike which lets you take bikers as troop choices for another example.

But hey, do what you really want to do- he's a beatstick, and no one likes getting beaten in the face by such a stick (people do refer to him as "Titan killer" for a reason!) I haven't used him myself, but I'd probably pop that fella in a land raider crusader with a squad of CC terminators, and again give them 2-3 TH/SS and the rest LC's. I'd lean more towards 3 LC's though, since you've got Lysander to take hits like a champ. Just watch out for CC terms with a null zone librarian


Automatically Appended Next Post:

edinburgh40kgamer wrote:
thanks a lot for this!

I see way too many people who don't really absorb what's being said to them in this forum. So no, thank YOU for listening and the positive attitude. Trust me, I at least appreciate it

MFletch wrote:

Jihallah wrote:Ok so scout snipers, lets say you have 5 of them. statistically, with bs3, 50% will hit. With poisoned weapons, your always going to wounds on a 4+. So 50% will wound. 1 in 4 shots will wound. 5 snipers.

yeah... kinda crappy.

Otherwise I agree with the rest of your post. However this out of context. Sure they are worst the bolters against orks.

But 1 in 4 will wound! This can be your monster/mephiston killer. They also are snipers so this will be your termy killer as well. They have 36'' range so they will become you ranged antiinfantry option.

5th edition means troops badly need transportation. Go for the 'back/rhino suggested above.

You should have no problem against imperial fists. He should spend 200 pts on an awful HQ choice so you have the advantage.

For FA please do not go with venguard or assault marines. Space marines do not do cc they can take a single squad of assault termies for when you really need to.

Im going to refrain from posting an "Im not sure if you are serious" motivational but...

Sniper scouts are very much crap at everything except at sometimes holding the home objective. If they happen to end up in CC or stare down the barrel of a HF then they are pretty much dead so dont count on them holding their objective too often.
Lysander is not "an awful HQ choice". He might not be the best but he is certainly not awful.

Anyway, with the models you have and the ability to buy 2-3 more boxes I would echo Jihallahs recomendation, buy two razorbacks. That would enable you to put up something like this

Captain (Relic Blade) = 130

Troops:
10xTacticals (ML+Flamer+Combi Flamer) = 180
Razorback (TLLC or LasPlas) = 75

10xTacticals (ML+Melta+Combi Melta) = 185
Razorback (TLLC or LasPlas) = 75

Elites:
Dread (AC+HF) = 125

5xTactical Terminators (CML) = 230

As is said above captains are really not very good, unless you are playing a biker army, so swap him out for a librarian. Want you would like to do with said librarian is up to, but gate of infinity and avenger is a good combo, and if you make him a terminator, gate and vortex is best.

I find that flamers in tactical squads never do much, especially if they are on foot. You could give them a melta/ plasma gun and throw them in a rhino, or, combat sqaud with a meltagun and combi melta sargeant in one squad and, and a heavy weapon in the other with a razorback.

it is true that assault terminators need a ride, unless they infiltrate with Shrike, so stick with tactical termies, and the CML is probably points-worthy.

For the dreadnought, there are 3 standard ways to field him, 1) Multi-melta + Heavy Flamer in a drop pod. 2) Two TL Autocannons. 3) Assault cannon HF i find #3 works fine in small point games, but when the points go up, it mostly stands around and cowers from meltaguns.

I am not defending scouts. Maybe 9 and Telion is a good option. Just saying they are not that bad, 75 pts and gives you an alternative to bolter fire. As to the comparison of scouts to nontroop choices then yes of course scouts are worse.

Lysander has awful for me rather than below average. Average should be bog standard choices and I think most people would prefer a librarian.

Your troops lose combat tactics and gain stubborn. This is not a fair swap. you have a model that slightly degrades the rest of your army. Then what does he add?
Eternal warrior, ok this is great, hello grey knights.
He has a bolter skill that he gives to his unit which I guess should be a cc tank hunter unit. I do not rate this highly.
Then in cc where I think he should be used he gives 3 attacks at I1. I know he is great compared to other SM but still not amazing.

So my argument relies on combat tactics and his price.

MFletch wrote:I am not defending scouts. Maybe 9 and Telion is a good option. Just saying they are not that bad, 75 pts and gives you an alternative to bolter fire. As to the comparison of scouts to nontroop choices then yes of course scouts are worse.

Lysander has awful for me rather than below average. Average should be bog standard choices and I think most people would prefer a librarian.

Your troops lose combat tactics and gain stubborn. This is not a fair swap. you have a model that slightly degrades the rest of your army. Then what does he add?
Eternal warrior, ok this is great, hello grey knights.
He has a bolter skill that he gives to his unit which I guess should be a cc tank hunter unit. I do not rate this highly.
Then in cc where I think he should be used he gives 3 attacks at I1. I know he is great compared to other SM but still not amazing.

So my argument relies on combat tactics and his price.

Valid points!

I'll obviously have to look further into his rules

thanks MFletch!

To improve your list I'd first look at what you are currently lacking. When I had the aobr set at first my biggest issue was enemy armour, 1 krak missile and 1 melta shot off a dread aren't going to hurt a great deal.

I bought sniper scouts and would advise against them for anything other than a cheap tactical squad, they aren't consistent enough for my liking tbh.

What I'd look at adding to up your points to 1500-2000ish would be

2 vindicators- cheap(ish), str10 AP2 large blast. Can be risky as it could scatter off target, but when it hits its wounding infantry on a 2+ with no armour saves. If it hits a vehicle its probably gonna do some serious damage. And with 2 you can nuke enemy troop choices fast! Anti horde/anti armour/anti elite all in 1 tank.

Land raider crusader- to transport your terminators, the lrc has a 24" range unlike the redeemer so an immobilised result isn't neutering its firepower, plus it can carry sixteen models (half that in terminator armour) anti infantry and with a multi melta anti armour. Plus a pain in the ass to kill at range

Razorbacks- I'd reccomend a razorback per tactical squad. I use them with TLLC for long range armour sniping, such as d. eldar raiders, rhinos, etc. But some people prefer lc/tlpg

Librarians- can potentially kill a monstrous creature in one hit with force weapon, powers are all fairly deadly too, and as far as HQs go one of the cheaper ones

More tactical squads- these are flexible units that as far as troops go are tough as nails, speaks for itself

Personally I never bothered using aobr dread, he takes a while to get across the board and an immobilised result can make him virtually useless.

Tl;dr get more transports, try to get everything in a transport and make use of tanks like vindis for their dual role functionality
Hope this was coherant/helpful!To improve your list I'd first look at what you are currently lacking. When I had the aobr set at first my biggest issue was enemy armour, 1 krak missile and 1 melta shot off a dread aren't going to hurt a great deal.

I bought sniper scouts and would advise against them for anything other than a cheap tactical squad, they aren't consistent enough for my liking tbh.

What I'd look at adding to up your points to 1500-2000ish would be

2 vindicators- cheap(ish), str10 AP2 large blast. Can be risky as it could scatter off target, but when it hits its wounding infantry on a 2+ with no armour saves. If it hits a vehicle its probably gonna do some serious damage. And with 2 you can nuke enemy troop choices fast! Anti horde/anti armour/anti elite all in 1 tank.

Land raider crusader- to transport your terminators, the lrc has a 24" range unlike the redeemer so an immobilised result isn't neutering its firepower, plus it can carry sixteen models (half that in terminator armour) anti infantry and with a multi melta anti armour. Plus a pain in the ass to kill at range

Razorbacks- I'd reccomend a razorback per tactical squad. I use them with TLLC for long range armour sniping, such as d. eldar raiders, rhinos, etc. But some people prefer lc/tlpg

Librarians- can potentially kill a monstrous creature in one hit with force weapon, powers are all fairly deadly too, and as far as HQs go one of the cheaper ones

More tactical squads- these are flexible units that as far as troops go are tough as nails, speaks for itself

Personally I never bothered using aobr dread, he takes a while to get across the board and an immobilised result can make him virtually useless.

Tl;dr get more transports, try to get everything in a transport and make use of tanks like vindis for their dual role functionality
Hope this was coherant/helpful!

Mechanized Space Corps wrote:To improve your list I'd first look at what you are currently lacking. When I had the aobr set at first my biggest issue was enemy armour, 1 krak missile and 1 melta shot off a dread aren't going to hurt a great deal.

I bought sniper scouts and would advise against them for anything other than a cheap tactical squad, they aren't consistent enough for my liking tbh.

What I'd look at adding to up your points to 1500-2000ish would be

2 vindicators- cheap(ish), str10 AP2 large blast. Can be risky as it could scatter off target, but when it hits its wounding infantry on a 2+ with no armour saves. If it hits a vehicle its probably gonna do some serious damage. And with 2 you can nuke enemy troop choices fast! Anti horde/anti armour/anti elite all in 1 tank.

Land raider crusader- to transport your terminators, the lrc has a 24" range unlike the redeemer so an immobilised result isn't neutering its firepower, plus it can carry sixteen models (half that in terminator armour) anti infantry and with a multi melta anti armour. Plus a pain in the ass to kill at range

Razorbacks- I'd reccomend a razorback per tactical squad. I use them with TLLC for long range armour sniping, such as d. eldar raiders, rhinos, etc. But some people prefer lc/tlpg

Librarians- can potentially kill a monstrous creature in one hit with force weapon, powers are all fairly deadly too, and as far as HQs go one of the cheaper ones

More tactical squads- these are flexible units that as far as troops go are tough as nails, speaks for itself

Personally I never bothered using aobr dread, he takes a while to get across the board and an immobilised result can make him virtually useless.

Tl;dr get more transports, try to get everything in a transport and make use of tanks like vindis for their dual role functionality
Hope this was coherant/helpful!To improve your list I'd first look at what you are currently lacking. When I had the aobr set at first my biggest issue was enemy armour, 1 krak missile and 1 melta shot off a dread aren't going to hurt a great deal.

I bought sniper scouts and would advise against them for anything other than a cheap tactical squad, they aren't consistent enough for my liking tbh.

What I'd look at adding to up your points to 1500-2000ish would be

2 vindicators- cheap(ish), str10 AP2 large blast. Can be risky as it could scatter off target, but when it hits its wounding infantry on a 2+ with no armour saves. If it hits a vehicle its probably gonna do some serious damage. And with 2 you can nuke enemy troop choices fast! Anti horde/anti armour/anti elite all in 1 tank.

Land raider crusader- to transport your terminators, the lrc has a 24" range unlike the redeemer so an immobilised result isn't neutering its firepower, plus it can carry sixteen models (half that in terminator armour) anti infantry and with a multi melta anti armour. Plus a pain in the ass to kill at range

Razorbacks- I'd reccomend a razorback per tactical squad. I use them with TLLC for long range armour sniping, such as d. eldar raiders, rhinos, etc. But some people prefer lc/tlpg

Librarians- can potentially kill a monstrous creature in one hit with force weapon, powers are all fairly deadly too, and as far as HQs go one of the cheaper ones

More tactical squads- these are flexible units that as far as troops go are tough as nails, speaks for itself

Personally I never bothered using aobr dread, he takes a while to get across the board and an immobilised result can make him virtually useless.

Tl;dr get more transports, try to get everything in a transport and make use of tanks like vindis for their dual role functionality
Hope this was coherant/helpful!

This is great!

Thanks for taking the time to write this! it was/will be extremelly helpful!

While vindicators are good, I'd be cautious in choosing them over predators.

While an S10 pie plate has many uses, the vehicle and firing method has some drawbacks. First, the pie plate is not incredibly accurate. IIRC, the math says it will hit on target ~60% of the time when firing at a vehicle. It also has short range, making it susceptible to be outmaneuvered and likely won't be shooting right from turn 1.

An AC/Las predator has several things going for it. Firstly, it can take a weapon destroyed result without loosing all of its firing ability. Secondly, it will more reliably disable low AV vehicles, which will be the majority of your AV targets. Additionally, its long range gives you better targets selection. While AC/Las predator has a couple drawbacks, such as relatively immobile and a poor choice for shooting AV14 or hordes, it will fulfill the role of disabling transports and other LOW av at a distance better than anything else

As always, choose what you need for your army.

Dracos wrote:While vindicators are good, I'd be cautious in choosing them over predators.

While an S10 pie plate has many uses, the vehicle and firing method has some drawbacks. First, the pie plate is not incredibly accurate. IIRC, the math says it will hit on target ~60% of the time when firing at a vehicle. It also has short range, making it susceptible to be outmaneuvered and likely won't be shooting right from turn 1.

An AC/Las predator has several things going for it. Firstly, it can take a weapon destroyed result without loosing all of its firing ability. Secondly, it will more reliably disable low AV vehicles, which will be the majority of your AV targets. Additionally, its long range gives you better targets selection. While AC/Las predator has a couple drawbacks, such as relatively immobile and a poor choice for shooting AV14 or hordes, it will fulfill the role of disabling transports and other LOW av at a distance better than anything else

As always, choose what you need for your army.

I'll weigh these pros and cons up... Thanks for the balanced look at it

Mark C

The statistics of hitting a vehicle with template are great. It all depends on the size and shape of the vehicle and then for SM taking 4 away. I would put it more at 50% but a lot higher against landraiders where the st10 is really needed.

Bloody land raiders!!! (when it's not mine)

I'd call it a personal choice between the AC/Las pred and the vindicators. If going for a very aggressive playstyle, I'd recommend the vindicators, I love fielding my pair of them. People get very scared of the pie plates they spit out, and they often cheer quite happily after putting a decent amount of fire into it, or zipping up and unloading some nasty AT into it (fire dragons, sternguard with combimeltas etc). But it's a 115p tank (I like 'em cheap and nasty ). I really aren't that fussed about a 115p tank getting suicide melta'd/gunned down, as my typhoons and GH do more heavy lifting than the vindicators

I'll eventually pick up both and swap around until i find out which one I prefer!
I have to say though, 115p is extremelly appealing

thanks again

Mark