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Celtic Strike wrote:If Marker drones got a point drop and became relentless that would solve most of markerlights problems.

Pair it up with a Steathsuit as a stealthy, long range marker light platform and they do become Relentless.


And actually, I think Tau are fine as they are. I've had people tell me they fear me when I play Crisis Suits. I've taken on entire armies and won because all I had left was a Crisis suit and I finished them off. Well worth the points in my hand.

What I think is a bit too glaring of a weakness is the assault. I don't mind being weak in assault (low WS). That's fine. I don't even mind causing few wounds in the assault (S 3, I 2). However, I should not be not good at assault AND cause less wounds AND be easily wiped out in a sweeping advance! That's a triple penalty, and seen as I have literally had only one Assault Marine (no joke. I killed the rest of his squad either by shooting or in previous assaults) wipe out half my tau army in close combat. It was sad. (Then again, I was having a day I couldn't roll above a 3... and I needed 4s to do anything. Happens from time to time.)

Personally, I see Devilfish becoming a little cheaper. Firewarriors probably staying the same. Maybe Marker lights becoming easier to get, and/or maybe cheaper. Maybe Pathfinders becoming troops, but unlikely. And maybe a new mecha suit like the Hazard suits or whatnot you find in forgeworld. I have a feelings that Broadside figure will be updated with the Forgeworld model when it happens. Also, Broadsides should be relentless, just like Terminators. Seen as, on a comparison, Terminators get Strength 8 Heavy 2 Krak missiles, with relentless, good at assault, 5+ ward saves, and a 2+ armour save. Not to mention some (like DA) can get a stormshield and Thunderhammer with the missiles, giving a +3 ward save at no additional point cost. AND they have better BS than the Broadside to boot. Aren't they individually cheaper too? I know only one can have the missile launcher (unless you play Black Templar who can have up to two) and Broadside gets a twinlinked pair per... (Twinlink balances well with the BS 3, then add in marker lights and I don't think that would need to be upgraded any.)

Rapid Fire is fine for the firewarriors, but Rapid Fire as a rule should state that they get full range single shot if they don't move, and get double shots within HALF their weapon range even if they do more. That one change would balance out the Tau well. They are the only one with a 30" rapid fire weapon. Everyone else's rapid fire weapons (from what I can tell) are all 24". That is, instead of making them assault one or whatever else people wanted to do with them.

Also, I can agree strongly with making Pulse Carbines into Assault 2 weapons. It makes sense, as for right now you pay for the pinning which only goes off if the squad causes any wounds, but only once per squad shooting (instead of once per wound).

Markerlights (in my opinion) should remain heavy weapons, with range of 36". However, they should be easier to take, and should have more options for being mounted on support units like a crisis suit, Stealth Suit, and maybe even the Devilfish. (I also feel Crisis Suits should be able to choose not just from a small list, but from most any weapon in the army (except for Railguns). A Rail Rifle option would be interesting, along with a Pulserifle if people wanted. Right on along with some other heavy weapons. They have relentless, yet all their choices (besides the Plasmarifle) are all assault weapons anyway. Why bother give them relentless if they aren't going to be using it? Nothing like paying for nothing... I don't think it would be asking much for have a crisis suit be able to take a marker light as well. That is less firepower they would have to bear.

I also feel that Seeker Missiles shouldn't have a BS, but if you use a Marker light to hit, it should just hit. You don't know how many times I launched a missile, only to roll a 1 after hitting with the marker light. Also, being able to use marker light hits to re-roll a missed shot would be nice too. Do recall the rule that says you can ever only re-roll a single dice once. So it isn't unlimited re-rolls still.

You would be amazed at what 3" can do. I could then lay down that fire without being at direct risk of being assaulted by normal troops. Whilst still remaining as true to the current codex as possible. And an Assault 2 Pulse Carbine would be at a more even standing to the Pulse Rifle now because it can deal the same amount of damage at only an extra 3", yet not have the same long range fire support that the 30" pulse rifle would have.

I'm hesitant to create any new weapons for the Tau without having a direct point to ability scale. Seen as GW has that and none of us do, I don't want to play around too much with new weapons if I can help it. I don't mind a few edits here and there though... And seen as the rule being proposed to change the rapid fire ability isn't Tau specific, it would effect everyone (who's weapon ranges are already only 24", making half range for that the 12" it already is). Tau are the only ones with a weapon that can shoot a longer range that isn't half range for the rapid part, and I see the intent of the rule making it half range.

Also, making defensive grenades standard would be nice too. Give them a bit more of a chance to survive an assault. (Or return sweeping advances to how it is in Fantasy, where it's a roll off even, no I bonuses.)

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:

Jefffar wrote:One thing I like about Tau is that they invent new tech to deal with new problems. The Rail Rifle being a prime example.

I think that rather than upgrading the Tau themselves, we need to focus on updating their tech.

For example, the Tau Pulse Carbine has a Photon Grenade Launcher built into it. That is the justification for it having the Pinning attribute.

Well why wouldn't the Tau also develop a launch-able version fo the EMP Grenade to give their firewarriors better anti-vehicle punch? Why wouldn't the Tau develop a light version of the Airbursting Fragmentation Projector's explosive shell to give their firewarrirors a little more anti-horde/indirect fire ability?

I like the way this guy is thinking

Pulse Carbine: The Pulse Carbine is a compressed, lightened version of the regular pulse rifle with a grenade launcher built into it, to compensate for the marginally weaker energy pulse. Normally, the launcher fires Pulse Grenades as the target to throw them into disarray. However, squads are often issued with alternate charges for dealing with specific threats. When firing a special grenade, any model which chooses to do so fires only the grenade, not the standard shot, as they must spend their time switching the load in their launcher and sighting on the enemy.

Standard: S: 4 AP: 5 R: 18" Assault 1, Pinning

EMP Grenade: S: - R: 18" Type: Assault 1, EMP*
Any vehicle struck by one of these shots counts as if hit by an EMP Grenade

Airburst Grenade: S: 3 AP: - R: 24" Type: Assault 1, Barrage, Small Blast

I like the thought behind his idea, it's just a matter of figuring out how to pull it off and how many points would it cost to do so. This is why I don't like messing with making new things unless you have enough ability to figure out the points. Marines can be simple as some of their weapon points are easy enough to figure out and you have plenty of references. (I mean, how many different marine codexes are there?)

Standard would still remain 18" S 5 AP 5 (I think) assault 1, pinning for your case.
EMP would follow EMP granade damage chart, at 18".
Airburst... I don't think is a good idea. Even then, I would suggest you follow the actual Airburst weapon profile, with maybe a smaller blast template and possible less range, or leaving it at 18".

And I would treat this like normal Marine special ammunition. They all would have to fire the same ammo, which as far as that airburst shot, would be too deadly (same with EMP, but not different than Swooping Hawks Haywire Packs I suppose). That is unless of course we pursue the assault 2 route, which would make EMP an assault 1 option if it still made it.

In response to the Rifles half range rapid fire vs pulse carbine, if the carbine became assault 2, it would hold it's own, as well as still being a pinning weapon, which the pulse rife is not. Sure, it's only 3", but sometimes every inch can make a difference.

In responce to AP 2 everywhere... that would make the Tau way overpowered. They could wound anything (just about) with their strength 5 weapons, AND no one would get saves from it with that AP 2. And if you marklight a squad with those weapons to increase BS 3 to BS 5... you now have a 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound (T3, 3+ for T4) AND deny armour saves... well. I hope they spam the invulnerable saves then to make up for this...

It's that whole balance issue. Not to mention AP 2 weapons would be expensive in points.


For the record, I would be all for creating new weapons and adapting like how Tau truly would, however in the same given light, we can't do that rightly without a breakdown of points. If we had a "This ability costs this much points" and "That weapon base costs this much", then maybe new weapons could be devised with ease. Until such a thing happens, I'm content to play around with a few minor things that already exist and leave creation of new weapons for an unknown point system to the professionals.

Also, Pulse Carbines are already out done by the Pulse Rifles. Rapid fire alone, even at 6" less, still hurts more than just one shot that is assault. It'd be a better weapon if say... Tau could assault without making even the Imperial Guard laugh at their efforts. Even forcing someone to be pinned and and having them go last in the assault doesn't help THAT much... and with most leadership being 9-10... pinning doesn't happen very often. (Or in the case of lower leadership armies, Tyranids make their little guys fearless, and Orks leadership can make them fearless if they get large enough squads.) At that point, Pinning is really only great at stopping a squad just before they assault and giving you an extra turn to shoot them up again.

So trying to make the pulse carbine not seem worse than the rifle stat line wise isn't hard, just by being rapid fire with the same stats as a pulse rifle is still better. Just get 6" closer and shoot twice the shots. It's more mathematically sound that way.

Pulse Carbines are suppose to out preform the rifles at close range. If you intend to close in with the foe, then the rifles aren't a weapon you should be looking into. Rifles are made for long range support. They get rapid fire to show that you can't line up shots easily on the move, but they can still be fired at the hip for less range, but more shots. Consider them like assault rifles. If you aim and shoot a single shot, it's very accurate. However, you can fire more than one shot, but the more you shoot, the less accurate you are, but the more bullets you throw out there to hit something with.

Basically, to sum up my whole paragraph, if you want a weapon that can dish out wounds on the move, Pulse Carbines are the weapons you should be looking at. If you want to rapid fire someone, (with our suggested changes) then you would be using the Pulse Rifle in the wrong intended way. Remember, Tau like to have each thing fill in a certain roll and adapt roles to fit the situation. Not make a universal weapon to handle anything. (If that was the case, then all crisis suits would have a missile pod for long range support and a plasma rifle for anti-armour as standard, instead of being completely customizable for the situation.)

Then what's up with the Bolter? Or any of the other rapid fire weapons? Do moving suddenly make them loose range magicly? An assault riffle fired like a sniper rifle will only shoot one shot. Any more in a given period of time will ruin the shots afterward due to recoil. This makes hitting targets farther away with anything more than a single shot impossible or unlikely. However, when brought to bear on the foe in a raid, the same assault rifles can be shot many times faster, as you are closer to your target and thus the recoil throwing off your shots isn't as impacting as your target is closer (larger in the scopes). That is my best equivalent real life explanation to how rapid fire works for anything in the game. Otherwise, does a magic mist cover their vision when they move that prevents them from shooting their weapon at full range?

What you are saying is that they get the same shots off weather they are moving or not, and that longer range shots don't take any extra time to line up... or account for weapon recoil.

Also, your football analogy is shots done over a longer span of time. We are talking about number of shots done in a second, or microsecond. Not done once every five minutes or whatever. We aren't talking about throwing three balls and seeing where they land if you where standing still or moving. Not to mention putting a time limit on it.

Okay... I'd have to ask if you've ever:
A) Shot a rifle yourself.
B) Seen police or real world marines preform a raid.
C) Seen them use the same weapon from the raid for a long range shot.

If you've ever shot a rifle yourself (I have, but it's been many years and I'm not a fan of it), then you would realize that it takes time to line up a shot and shoot. Even a semi-automatic rifle like the one I used needs more time to line up after a shot to shoot something far away. Same goes for if I moved. If I moved, I need to stop again to align my shot back up for farther targets. However, if something was closer where I could eyeball it better (because it is closer and is thus bigger to me), then I could pop off a few shots off and recoil wouldn't affect my overall accuracy of the shots.

If you've seen a raid, the cops or marines normally hold their guns to their shoulders, they walk forward and shot a burst, three or four shots. If they need to aim, they stop to aim.

Then if you've seen an officer snipe with those same weapons, they either prop the gun up, or stand still to line up a shot, and then shoot with only one shot.

Well... if we want to see it as 15" would make the pulse carbine too useless, then keep the pulse rifle the same and make the carbine into an assault 2 weapon. That way, you get two wounds up to 18 inches, but lose out on the range.

I still feel that the carbine needs more attacks to even make it worth the change from rifles. Otherwise even a 12" rapid fire is better. (If so many things didn't have high leadership or provide fearless to low leadership models, the carbine might be able to actually hold it's own a bit more. Stop an assault from happening for a turn maybe. And do recall that assault marines have a threat range of 18"...)

Avatar 720 wrote:From a war perspective as opposed to an armed response or police perspective, moving and shooting doesn't always constitue everyone firing whilst moving. Moving and shooting in 40k to me is something more along the lines of half the squad laying down supressing fire, as the other half moves to the new location, and then they lay down fire so the rest of their squad can move. Supressing fire has to be semi-precise, and has to at least have a good chance of hitting the enemy, otherwise they can just take shots at the moving squad.

This is completely different from the entire unit firing on the move, and affords half the unit at a time some form of shooting that isn't pin-point precise, but isn't just wildly firing either.

Using modern weapons to argue recoil is also quite useless. Where present military tactics can be accepted to be used widely even in 40k, you can't argue that a 41st millenium alien plasma weapon has the same drawbacks as a 21st century human solid projectile one. We don't know just how much recoil pulse rifles generate, and the sheer difference between pulse rifles and present day guns is so vast that it's largely impractical to compare them.

There's also the fact that raids aren't warzone fire-fights. Raids are fast-paced by nature to avoid the chance of anyone escaping, but warzones are not only on a significantly larger scale, but also don't share the same pace as close-quarters raids.

A raid works very similar to a warzone, just the assaulting side has far more control over what happens. True it is faster and in closed environment more often than not. Also, what you suggest as far as cover fire would be different. Cover fire is not intended to actually hit your foes with any degree of accuracy. Cover fire is actually shots fired roughly in your opponent's direction with the intention of keeping your foes heads down and afraid to fire till your squad makes it into position. Most Cover Fire doesn't even hit the foe, and if it does, it's probably by luck. Look it up on a wiki if you want and come back with the results. If it says that cover/suppression fire is highly accurate, then I will correct my standing.

Also, as far as half the squad moving and the other half staying behind for a moment longer to provide this fire, though is an actual military strategy, do recall this is a board game and they look to simplify real life, and that it is represented in other ways. Going from your statement, we might as well drop the rule that says if even one model of your squad moves that the whole squad counts as moving. You say it shouldn't, but people where moving a couple models without heavy weapons before that rule and it was deemed as too confusing or was being abused in an unseen way.

To lay down cover fire in the game, you would need to represent it with two squads. Seen as Marines probably show current military tactics, I'll work with a rule that actually have in their codex. Combat squads. That way, you get you half the squad running forward and the other half can sit back and provide pin-point cover fire...

As far as recoil on a comparison goes, I kinda figure that is why it is considered a rapid fire weapon. And we don't know if pulse rifles have a recoil. When you find one to test and see if it does, let me know? Till then, I'll be presuming that it does have one making it rapid fire. Though, if you want to get into recoil and such, the Railgun has no recoil according to fluff in the books and stuff. Yet, Dawn of War shows it with a recoil, and it's considered a heavy weapon too in the boardgame. Make sense of that...

Also, when comparing the table top game to real life you already come across many problems. In real life, I wouldn't be able to see every model on the field. Some could be hidden from my knowledge. Not usually represented in the game well. Like snipers are usually very hard to find. In the table top game, they are clearly visible. We also talk of weapons that do not exist. A plasma cannon, does it send out a bolt of lighting like energy with ground out in a small area, zapping foes to death? Is it like a ball of super charged gas (what plasma really is) which somehow magically stays in a ball shaped form and explodes once it comes into contact with something cooler than it (excluding air magically). A Meltagun. Is it a high strength lazer? Is it more like a mobile mini microwave of death? It sends out charge particles melting the amrour of vehicles and other assorted effects. Why do grenades, something deemed deadly in todays world, seem to only keeps people's heads in cover for a moment longer to get you into assault without being shot up? Why is it when people assault you through cover you don't get to shoot at them and instead the people assaulting you get to go last?

There are many game workings that could use more definition. Then again, some are clearly explained. The best we can do is trust that the rules have a certain standing to them. And as far as weapons go for comparison, the best we can do it to compare them to a weapon that already exists and is widely understood. Like a pistol is a pistol, can shoot at long ranges, but really only accurate at short ranges. Shown in the game with a range of 12". Any shot beyond that is deemed too unreliable to be accurate.