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Hey guys, I'll make this quick and sweet

I just recently came upon a whole whack of night goblins ( 180 to be more precise), and I'm curious if it's viable to have a whole goblin army. What are the pro's and cons? I have 2 giant spiders too, so I'd field them as well.

Pro's: A LOT of models (at 3 points each, yes, there can be a lot)
Big units can really bring out a huge amount of attacks (but see con's)
Fanatics (let the enemy charge you if they dare)
Spiders - The spider riders are cool, fast and sneaky, the Arachnarok is cool, fast, sneaky AND freaking awesome! 8 STR 5 attacks, ALL poisonous, one of them Multi-Wound D6 plus
Thunderstomp, (plus the eight gobbos riding on), that's definitely gotta hurt.
Wolves - If you're not thinking of Night Goblins only, wolf cavalry is even faster!
The spells of the Little Whaaagh! are awesome and pretty destructive (try casting Curse of Da Bad Moon augmented against Dwarfs and see what I mean!)
Really cheap characters - you'll need a lot in an all-goblin force (see con's)
And of course the awesome Doom Diver Catapult!!!
Plus you can take a few pretty beasties along such as Giants and Trolls just for kicks.

Con's: Low, low, LOW Leadership. I mean it, it's low. Heavily dependent on characters for Leadership. Night Goblins especially.
WS 2. Sucks. A lot of attacks doesn't help when you're not hitting anything with them.
If unit flees Fanatics not yet released die (some lucky shooting is all it takes).
Also low Initiative (Night Goblins are a little better of in this department at the expense of 1 Ld)

Anyone care to add to the above, feel free.

Well that's a bit discouraging


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The pro's seem fantastic, but the whole not hitting anything due to WS 2 really brings me down :(

WS2 really only matters against WS5+, which basically means WoC and a few elite units in other armies only.

And everyone will basically be hitting on 3s. You will hit WS4 and below on 4s, which isn't bad.


The upside to this is that failing a Fear test really doesn't penalize you much.

Well here is the thing... At 3 pts a model you can easily make units of 50 or better 60, 5 wide with 3 fanatics in each. When something goes to attack you you release fanatics and then hold them in place while tarpitting, there is a chance a good one if taking 3 a fanatic might go back through the unit, hell even if it hits you it's only going to kill 3 pt models so no biggie. YOu really want something to hit them in the flank while tarpitted, like squigs, pump wagon, chariots, trolls or even orcs, though a troll/goblin army is very fluffy.

In my games I have had way more success with my goblin units than my orcs. Perhaps it is just really poor rolls but my orcs get curb stomped against everything while my goblins are running around putting the hurt on the enemy. Also, you never feel bad losing a goblin unit since you have 5 more on the table.

Jamora wrote:Hey guys, I'll make this quick and sweet

I just recently came upon a whole whack of night goblins ( 180 to be more precise), and I'm curious if it's viable to have a whole goblin army. What are the pro's and cons? I have 2 giant spiders too, so I'd field them as well.

Pros:

+ Cheap basic infantry. In return for being WS 2, I 3 / 2, Ld 5 / 6, you get an otherwise T3 model with a 6+ save on a 20mm base. If a Common Goblin and willing to field only six goblins for the price of seven (Or 35 instead of 42), you can then get T3 with 5+/6+ save. Alternatively, for the cost of about... 15, I think, naked gobbos, you get Nets, which net you ( ) -1 Strength on an enemy unit in hand-to-hand five times out of six.

Basically, they work as cheap anvils. 35 Night Goblins with Nets or 35 Common Goblins w/ Shields costs only about 150pts (actually, a good deal less in one case). In addition, each has "cheap" tricks they can use, but almost unanimously Night Goblins are considered to have the better of the sneaky gitz (The specialist units being Fanatics for Night Goblins, Slittaz for Common Goblins).

+ Variety. Goblin Armies thrive on having some variety between unit types, in part because each unit plays one role well and everything else (typically) poorly. This gives a lot of opportunity for trying different paint schemes, conversions, buying different unit types, etcetera.

+ Cheap characters. It is not impossible for a Goblin Army to fit a dozen characters in 2,000 points, or even more! This plays both into variety, and helps to pad up your basic units. There's a reason one commonly suggested strategy is basically "Four Greatweapon Heroes in Front Rank", and that's very few opposing armies enjoy the prospect of being slapped by 12 - 16 S6 hits (assuming none are killed). Alternatively, you can readily fit a great deal of mages, meaning greater amount of Arcane Items.

+ Specialists. See Variety for the drawback, but Goblins have a few Specialists they're good at. Wolf Chariots can net you, potentially, 3D6+3 S5 impact hits from a single unit, and if you imagine that hitting someone on the Flanks (or, better yet, Flanks and then Sneaky Stabbin'd to re-roll failed wounds and add Armor Piercing)... Other specialists are pretty good too. Squigs are purely combat, and lack saves, but at WS4, S5, A2? Striking at Initiative Order? Or perhaps their tricky units like Fanatics, or chained monsters like Mangla Squigs?

~ ~ ~

Con:

- Very low leadership. They may almost always have Steadfast, but they will still crumble in one defeat without any General nearby (Ld. 5 / 6 isn't that great to be stubborn at). The best Leadership you can get in the entire army is 9, which entails buying a BSB, giving them the Banner of Discipline, and putting them in your General's unit. Add in that your General cannot be everywhere... Fortunately, see "Cheap characters" again. While they don't neutralize everything, when you can put a Warboss in every unit outside the General's bubble it helps to reduce Leadership issues slightly (Ld. 8 still only means a 50-ish percent chance of success, if leaning in your favor).

- TONS of models to assemble and build. And deploy / pack up. You can, very possibly, have over 200 models down in a 2000-2500 point game. Typically you'll need such large numbers as, when Steadfast goes, your Goblins are gone after being beaten.

- Mediocre Magic Choices. Your army has one - ONE - Lore, two if you buy a Lord the Wizarding Hat (and in such case the Lore is random). Furthermore, while by no means a bad Lore, the Night Goblin Lore is lacking in some regards as well. Two advantages I saw put out for the Lore, though:

1) Curse of the Bad Moon is a Power Vortex that cannot "Misfire" upon casting. If done with a Night Goblin you still have the high injury chance / instant-failure, but a Power Vortex with no risk of blasting yourself is always interesting (as well as the 66% chance of getting an attribute test that Elves strongly dislike).

2) It's very possible in a 2000-2500 point list to fit in your entire Lore twice, through the use of a Great Shaman on an Arachnarok Spider and then 6-7 more levels of Wizards. Remember though that it's not an amazing Lore, much of its spells are buffs or debuffs so your Direct Damage capability is limited (in return, you can throw two large bubbles of shooting penalties, put down a pair of "reliable" power vortexes, spam Armor Piercing like crazy..).

- Unforgiving and Spiteful. These both go together. Messing up pretty much any stage of the game (Army List, Deployment, Priority) can readily ruin your day. Very readily. Furthermore, even if you mess nothing up... Congrats! You have Animosity! The most heavy handed rule in the game! This plight means that throughout the game your units will often charge themselves headlong into situations you really don't want them to be in (Ex: Running forward to charge Chosen, releasing Fanatics early, then killing said Fanatics as you continue charging through so as to hit the Chosen sans 2-3 Fanatics and sans 4-6D6 of your brick's members). Your army can very well, without any input from the enemy or purposeful action, kill itself.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Overall, though, even with the flaws, Goblins have very good potential to be competitive. They will never be VC or Daemon competitive, but when you can fit 6 Bolt Throwers and 4 Stone Throwers in a 2000 point list (with over 2/3 the army to spare), or cram in a half dozen arcane item bearers in the same size, your army is readily designable to wreck someone's day.

I'm currently running a Night Goblin Warboss with a BSB and standard of defiance in the same unit (conveniently placed behing another NG unit so they don't animosity into oncoming enemy units.

His Ld 8 bubble with reroll in 5 games so far has failed 1 test.
I cluster the other 4 NG units around him.

The other flank has Squig herd (ITP), Squig hoppers (ITP), 2 giants (Ld 10 stubborn), 2 Mangler Squigs (ITP) which run fine without the need for a general nearby.

And to Minsc... the goblin magic is quite good.
I run a level 4 NG mage and a level 2 NG mage. The extra dice is brilliant (magic mushrooms) and then if the spell gets off I turn an enemy dispel dice into a power dice.

The poison spell is great vs monsters when running hordes (36 spear NGs with poison vs an arachnarok spider is pretty damned effective) is great and the reroll all 6's to hit, to wound and armour saves has killed enough and saved enough of my guys to keep me in the fight.


Animosity is awful for goblins/night goblins.
5/6 rolls mean I have to charge the enemy if able (16 inch possible charge mean alot of dashes forward. I've charges 10 Chaos knights and a chaos lord and a BSB after failing animosity, and ran over 2 of my own fanatics (4d6 st5 hits) and a mangler squig (3d6 St6 hits!) with 35 NG archers.
Animosity works a treat for orcs, it definitely doesn't for gobbos

Minsc wrote:They will never be VC or Daemon competitive, but when you can fit 6 Bolt Throwers and 4 Stone Throwers in a 2000 point list (with over 2/3 the army to spare), or cram in a half dozen arcane item bearers in the same size, your army is readily designable to wreck someone's day.

Wow I must have been reading this board wrong or something, I've always thought VC sort of sucked, and had like one competitive build (I def recall several people saying that people will call you cheesy for running the grave guard/regen banner setup, even though it's like one of the only tricks you have).

In regards to a goblin army, I hardly see anyone ever running one, so if anything it will be a refreshing experience to play against you.

VC and daemons were top dogs (along with DE) last edition, haven't heard a lot of stink from them this edition though.

Back on topic though, large NG blocks with nets and probably fanatics make fantastic tarpits. From there its up to squigs and other goblin shenanigans to get the job done. Squig herds hit like a ton of bricks, and mangler squigs are disgustingly brutal. Even pump wagons pump out great damage. So basically the entire army will revolve around ol' reliable anvil and hammer stratagem that we have all seen 70 bjallion times. Unless I'm mistaken though, running the poison banner in a gobbo unit and casting the poison spell with bows will result in some interesting bouts of volley fire.

Then again, I'm probably the only person who prefers nasty skulkers to fanatics, since I've seen what they do to VC and the like in that first round. Truly hilarious.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:The other flank has Squig herd (ITP),

Another bonus is that Squig Herds (technically) never break.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Squig hoppers (ITP), 2 giants (Ld 10 stubborn), 2 Mangler Squigs (ITP) which run fine without the need for a general nearby.

Aye, though I have to wonder if OP means literally "Goblin Only" or just "No Orc units", there being a difference (the latter opening up Giants, Trolls, Mangler Squigs, and other delightful options).

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:And to Minsc... the goblin magic is quite good.
I run a level 4 NG mage and a level 2 NG mage. The extra dice is brilliant (magic mushrooms) and then if the spell gets off I turn an enemy dispel dice into a power dice.

It's good, the flaw is more that it lacks much in the way of direct damage, and if running purely Gobbos it's the only Lore you can take (again, discounting Wizarding Hat or Storms of Magic), and as an only-choice Lore it's - while not bad - similarly not amazing.

Then again, I'm of the opinion that most of the Goblin spells work amazingly better on Orcs than Goblins, the exceptions being Spider God and Sneaky Stabbin (which are helpful cast on anything). Not that they're bad on Goblin units, mind (except the Soft Cover + Dangerous Terrain spell: Goblins very rarely need it, and when they do they'll probably use the bubble version), just that the lore is better suited for such.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Animosity is awful for goblins/night goblins.

Yeah, pray for Gork & Mork's favor, as when it hits you it'll hit hard. Charging Goblins run through their own fanatics taking 2-6D6 hits and killing them in the bargain, or you deny two mages casting capability in a single turn. If playing all Night Goblins, expect the army to blow up in your face at least once every ten or so games, or at least your battle plan. Goblin armies need to be very flexible in their plans. You can't do "This is my Mage & Lord brick" like with other armies, as it's very possible your four levels of "Buff Gak Up" will decide he's much more interested in spiking his neighbor's Mushroom Brew, or your Warboss decided he'd much rather rush 16" forward to try charging those Chaos Chosen as opposed to staying back and letting your War Machines fire for another 1-2 turns. Or, alternatively, if extremely unlucky you'll run several of your units off the Table Turn 1 Player Turn 1 due to particularly destructive 1-1 Animosity rolls.

A goblin army (so long as you don't mind painting hundreds of the little blighters) should be fun, so go for it. I have never regretted creating a goblin Blood Bowl team; win or lose (and guess which occurs the more often...) goblins are fun to play. Victories are all the sweeter for their unlikeness, and defeats all the more excusable.