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Does stubborn make a unit immune to the effects of IG psyker battle squads

not immune per say, as they can still blast you. however the -ld modifiers "dont work" on stubborn units.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:not immune per say, as they can still blast you. however the -ld modifiers "dont work" on stubborn units.

Lovely. Thanks!

Stubborn makes you ignore negative LD modifiers for morale tests, so weaken resolve will not affect that. However you are still at a lower LD for things like pinning tests, psychic tests and other kinds of LD tests.

Stubborn does nothing against something which gives you a new Ld value.

It just prevents you from taking negative modifiers such as losing combat.

Grey Templar wrote:Stubborn does nothing against something which gives you a new Ld value.

It just prevents you from taking negative modifiers such as losing combat.

Which means a unit that is hit with Weaken Resolve will be rolling on a Stubborn value reduced to whatever the PBS numbers reflect. Often, this means Ld2, which would require snake eyes.

This is a great way to sweep away an opposing blob squad!

I don't understand so which is it, LD2 oir unaffected, assuming they got hit successfully and had stubborn.?

Yep, I agree. Unfortunately, our club uses INAT and they say it's a modifier so does not work against stubborn. Still trying to figure out out Leadership being reduced becomes a modifier to the Morale test, but oh well.

Augustus wrote:I don't understand so which is it, LD2 oir unaffected, assuming they got hit successfully and had stubborn.?

Situation:

A PBS hits you with Weaken Resolve, reducing your Ld from 9 to 2. They inflict 25% casualties or a pinning check, thus forcing you to roll on your unmodified Ld of 2, thus requiring snake-eyes to not suffer a negative effect.

That is what I was talking about. Stubborn only really helps in close-combat - negating penalties for casualties.

Grey Templar wrote:Stubborn does nothing against something which gives you a new Ld value.

It just prevents you from taking negative modifiers such as losing combat.

Actually Stubborn units always ignore any negative leadership modifers. Psyker Battle Squad's weaken resolve is a negative modifer applied to a units base leadership, Stubborn expressly ignores this

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Stubborn does nothing against something which gives you a new Ld value.

It just prevents you from taking negative modifiers such as losing combat.

Actually Stubborn units always ignore any negative leadership modifers. Psyker Battle Squad's weaken resolve is a negative modifer applied to a units base leadership, Stubborn expressly ignores this

That's just it. It's not a modifier applied to the dice roll. It's an actual change to the LD value. That's why stubborn doesn't work (IMO).

Actually it's a reduction to their leadership Value, expressed in a simple math equation with Pedro K as an example.

Pedro K is leadership 10
There are 9Psykers in the unit and 1 overseer(-9)

10-9=1 however the minimum allowed is 2, the -8 is a modifier beings it has changed/modified the original units leadership by a negative amount

The reduction is a negative modifier of in this case -8, which is disallowed based on the stubborn rules

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Actually it's a reduction to their leadership Value, expressed in a simple math equation with Pedro K as an example.

Pedro K is leadership 10
There are 9Psykers in the unit and 1 overseer(-9)

10-9=1 however the minimum allowed is 2, the -8 is a modifier beings it has changed/modified the original units leadership by a negative amount

The reduction is a negative modifier of in this case -8, which is disallowed based on the stubborn rules

While it does 'modify', ie change their LD value, it is NOT a modifer to the dice roll as per the 40K rules (page 2, Modifying Dice rolls). That's why Stubborn does not work.

It's alright though, as Stubborn doesnt reference the modified dice roll section, only that they always ignore negative leadership modifiers.

Having just read the part of the BRB that talks about Moral test I have come to the Conclusion that there may be no right answer unless GW just says there is. I personally don't see the Pyker effect as a mod and think it should work.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:It's alright though, as Stubborn doesnt reference the modified dice roll section, only that they always ignore negative leadership modifiers.

"When taking Morale tests, stubborn units always ignore any negative Leadership modifiers." So, what is a negative Leadership modifier? Oh look, there it is, explained on page 2! But we can play it your way, since if it doesn't reference those then it won't affect them. By your reasoning it only affects things that directly influence the models/units leadership value, and the modifiers on page 2 don't affect the Leadership value, they affect the Die roll. I can live with that. I think it's wrong, but if that's how you insist on playing it.............

Really, you don't see a difference between something that modifies the dice roll (a modifier) and something that affects the models leadership (not a modifier)?

Frankly I've never looked at page two(other than when you just cited) because it might be the worst written page in the book.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Stubborn:When taking Morale tests, stubborn units always ignore any negative leadership modifiers." pg 76 BGB

Psyker BS" For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's leadership is reduced by the # of psykers"

The unit's leadership is essentially 10-P, however when taking Morale tests they ignore said negative modifier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's just how I read the rules Don, I'm not trying to argue and maybe I'm just being dumb. (it happens) Sometimes you have to S-P-E-L-L it out for me

'S allright. We can agree to disagree.

Agreed

don_mondo wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Actually it's a reduction to their leadership Value, expressed in a simple math equation with Pedro K as an example.

Pedro K is leadership 10
There are 9Psykers in the unit and 1 overseer(-9)

10-9=1 however the minimum allowed is 2, the -8 is a modifier beings it has changed/modified the original units leadership by a negative amount

The reduction is a negative modifier of in this case -8, which is disallowed based on the stubborn rules

While it does 'modify', ie change their LD value, it is NOT a modifer to the dice roll as per the 40K rules (page 2, Modifying Dice rolls). That's why Stubborn does not work.

"Stubborn units always ignore any negative Leadership modifiers." (page 76, BRB). Nothing in that rule states dice modifiers so page two has NOTHING to do with this rule. Weaken Resolve reduces the enemy LD (i.e., negatively modifies it) thus IS ignored by stubborn units.

So guys, look, the truth is, it's "unknown", or undecided, like whether a virus is alive or not.

The question is, is reducing lead value the same as a negative leadership modifier?

The INAT says it is. There is no official word on it from GW. All your arguing one way or the other beyond that is largely talking about how many angels dance on the head of a pin.

Otherwise, the conflict resolution comes down to this:

1) Is your group/tournament using the INAT? If so, settled.

2) Can you and your opponent agree on it? If so settled.

3) Whatever the hell your TO says. Fini.

For my part, it is helpful to remember that GW does not use precise keywords (though they seem to be trying to move that way), so something that from a common sense perspective is the same thing, such as reducing leadership versus giving it a negative, usually is the same thing.

don_mondo wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Actually it's a reduction to their leadership Value, expressed in a simple math equation with Pedro K as an example.

Pedro K is leadership 10
There are 9Psykers in the unit and 1 overseer(-9)

10-9=1 however the minimum allowed is 2, the -8 is a modifier beings it has changed/modified the original units leadership by a negative amount

The reduction is a negative modifier of in this case -8, which is disallowed based on the stubborn rules

While it does 'modify', ie change their LD value, it is NOT a modifer to the dice roll as per the 40K rules (page 2, Modifying Dice rolls). That's why Stubborn does not work.

So it comes down to modify vs reduce langauge?

I think that's pretty thin, to say well it doesnt reduce it, it just changes it from 10 to 2. Thats pretty clearly a reduction, especially in game terms...

But I can understand the position.

I tend to think the intent of stubborn is that nothing scares them off and that generally you shouldn't be able to 'weaken their resolve', because they are crazy, or drugged or suicidal, or brainwashed or something? But I have no RAW basis for that really.

What a mess.

This has been rehashed multiple times on the board. Stubborn will work against abilities that reduce leadership. That said, it does not work against effects the 'replace' the leadership value with a static number.

There is a distinction between these two types of effects, and stubborn vs a PBS shows why the distinction is important.

maybe, or is hand waving to make the Ig position a better argument

Sir_Prometheus wrote:So guys, look, the truth is, it's "unknown", or undecided, like whether a virus is alive or not.

No it's not. The truth is the Leadership value is reduced with WR. THAT is a NEGATIVE modifier. Stubborn ignores negative modifiers, ergo, Stubborn ignores WR. There is no uncertain here. The language in both rules are clear and precise, no ambiguity at all.

The question is, is reducing lead value the same as a negative leadership modifier?

No, not really since they are the same. A negative Leadership modifier reduces the Leadership value, therefor whatever reduces the Leadership value is a negative Leadership modifier unless ruled otherwise. I'm not seeing ANY gray area in terminology or application of terminology.

This also comes up with the Psychotroke roll of 4, which says the enemy is reduced to Leadership 2. Is that a modifier too?

My logic here is that most often, when I see a "modifier" in the rulebook, it is called that. Not a "reduction", but more specifically a "modifier".

The language always says something like "Pinning tests caused by ordnance barrages are taken with a -1 Ld modifier." p58, BRB.

Now, both Weaken Resolve does not use the specific term modifier, thus it is not. It does, however, alter the stat of the opposing unit, much like a Rad Grenade reduces the opponents toughness by 1, but doesn't say it is a -1 modifier to Toughness.

So, by my account, it is not a "modifier", thus Stubborn units under Weaken Resolve will test against their reduced base Leadership, which depends on however many Psykers are present in the squad.

I'm sorry, how is a reduction not a modification? You butthurt IG players astound me. SORRY but your super cheese isn't going to work against a Lysander list or any other stubborn list, it amazes me that people even think there's something to debate here.

Seems like you are the butthurt one. A reduction is not the same as a modifier. Hard to make it more clear than my example. Rules are rules.

How is a reduction not a modification? These words are synonymous. Just because it doesn't say "the unit's leadership is negatively modified by the number of psykers" doesn't mean it's not a modification. Your argument is just abuse of the english language.

No they are not synonymos in the game. Big difference.

A REDUCTION is not classed as a MODIFIER in the game rules.