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After being pummeled severely by 2 Grey Knight Players with similar razorback filled lists in rounds 1 and 2, I realized the limitations of my Ork list. Here is what I did bring and what I think would have done better.

HQs
Warboss, warbike, PK 150
Big Mek, KFF, PK 125

Elites
15X2 Lootas 450
6 Kommandos, 2 Burnas, Nob, PK 160

Troops
6 Nob Bikers, 2 PK, Painboy, 3 Big Choppas 429
19 'Ard Boys, Nob, PK 230
11 Shoota Boyz 71
1 Trukk 55
1 Deff Dread, 2 DCCW, 2 Mega Blastas 120

FA
2X3 Deffkoptas, Rokkits 270

HS
1 Battlewagon, Deff Rolla 140
3X2 Killa Kans, 1 DCCW, 1 Mega Blasta 330

'Ard Boys in Battlewagon, KFF Mek in Trukk with Shoota Boyz behind and obscuring Deff Dread and Killa Kans.

Limitations: Not enough scoring units, decent but not enough anti mech/terminator weapons.

Solution?

HQs
2 Big Meks, KFF, PK 250

Elites
15X3 Lootas 675

Troops
10X5 Shoota Boyz 325
1X2 Trukks 80

FA
5X3 Deffkoptas, Rokkits 675

HS
3X3 Killa Kans, 1 DCCW, 1 Mega Blasta 495

What do you think of the change?

Ard Boyz is 2500 points right?
That second list, has far far too few Ork models for 2500....
You have 5 squads of 10 boyz, with only 2 trukks....If your boyz aren't in a trukk or Battlewagon, you should be taking them in a squad of 30 really...
9 Deffkoptas? I would personally go with 3 or 6, 9 just seems like too many.
I like 45 Lootas, especially at the higher points level.
Are mega blastas the best weapon for Kans? I'm not sure...

@ Rodgers:The boyz are there for speed bumps, meat shields, and objective holders, not objective takers. I might put them in trukks with PK Nobs, but I would only be able to afford 3 scoring units. I would rather have the mobility of 15 S8 AP3 twin linked shots from the Deffkoptas (67% chance to hit), and the 9 S8 AP2 shots from the Kanz (50% chance to hit). With my original list of 6 Rokkits and 8 Mega Blastas, I was able to shoot a good bit of Grey Knight Terminators before they got to me, and my Lootas took out their mech pretty well. The boyz just got eaten for brunch. What do you think is the best weapon for the Kanz?

no gretchin?

General advice build a good balanced list with lots of different attack options so you can deal with any threat, with the exception of orks.
No ork unit is that great. Even a battlewagon dies pretty easily. What you have to do is spam what you have.

Then you have the points score of 2500, orks struggle with FoC. Spamming kans works but as you can only take 9 for 2500 pt army this is not such a scary prospect.
What I am leading to is the only thing you can get in enough quantity to ensure half your army gets to the enemy is Battlewagons.

So a single battlewagon can easily be shot by all their lascannons which are looking for a high av target. Then their antiinfantry guns have the loots to shoot at. Then their assault units can pick off the kanz or the small boyz squad. You are making sure all their units have a target they can destroy, they'll like that.


I guess you are limited with models. As such I would take your commandos but buy snikrot, nob bikers, 15 koptas. These work as extras so will do their own thing and will help your man attack force.

Then as the main strike force go for 5 lots of 30 squad boyz with a nob, this is the only way to make foot slogging boyz work. Any less and they will shot up too badly by the time they see action.
With the Lootas, who will need to be supported/defended/accompanied by something, I would go for 9 kannons.

Any chance you can just buy at least 5 battlewagons? But otherwise Yes, you'll need all 6 scoring units for the missions and more antimech given how many tanks can come at this range. Good Luck .

@ Waaaghboss: I used to use grots, but a squad of 10 plus Runtherd is 40 points. 10 Boyz are 60. That extra 20 points gets me a lot more quality attacks and toughness.

@ MFletch: I have 18 Nob Bikers, Snikrot, the other Kommando Nob, a Big Mek w/KFF, 15 Koptas, 2 Battlewagons, 2 Trukks, 7 Artillery pieces, 6 Kanz, 1 Deff Dread, 30 Lootas, and uncounted boyz.

I do not like boys in trukks as my assault force because the trukks are so easily wrecked, then the less than 12 Boyz who survive the explosion are too few to be effective after they are whittled down as they walk across the board.

Because of the FOC, I can take 3 Battlewagons as my heavy support, but that means I can't take any artillery or Killa Kanz with their S8 shots.

As only Nobs can take a Battlewagon as a dedicated vehicle, I'll need 2 Warbosses to make 2 mobs of them troops and keep my Elite slots open for the Lootas. With the Warbosses taking up HQ slots, I can't take KFF Meks to shield the Battlewagons.

I like the idea of Snikrot, but only if I put a Warboss or two with him to make him really effective. I did bring him to the preliminaries, but since the rounds are timed, twice (Kill Points and Victory Points scenarios) I did not make the roll to bring him in and the Kommandos were counted as destroyed against me. Plus, I have destroyed more with Lootas than anything else, so I do not like exchanging 15 of them for him.

I like the Kans over the Artillery because of their mobility, and they can fire AP2 Mega Blastas without getting hot. I had a practice match before the Semi-Finals with 9 AP2 Zzap Gunz and 9 ammo runts, and although they hit well, they were not consistent enough Strength to be as effective as Mega Blastas with no ammo runts.

As for Kannons, they are only AP3, and for what they do, I have 15 mobile Koptas.

My second list is like the Kan Wall idea shielding the "main" force of 30 Mob Boyz across the board, except that the Kanz are the "main" force.

Why so many deffkopters? If its just to make points then fine but if you have other stuff namely more boyz models drop those deff kopters.

Seems like OP is trying to reinvent the wheel when it comes to ork tourny list and its a wonky ineffective wheel at that.

Both list are terrible to be honest its never a good idea to mix kans with BWS you dont have enough bodies for combat and you are not going to win a shooting war.

Are you normally a marine player per chance?

Nope. Just play Orks. I like the Deffkoptas because of the twin-linked Rokkits (67% to hit, the best an Ork can hope for!), S8 AP3 24" range. They have 2 wounds, great mobility, can take out tanks, and will slaughter Marines. I saw way more mech than I am used to, and just my 6 Koptas did a lot of damage. I may drop the number to from 15 to 9, but I don't know what I would rather have. The problem with my Boyz is in CC with Grey Knights. Those force weapons instant kill my 2 wound Bikers, and even the 19 Slugga/Choppa 'Ard Boyz (4+ Armour) in a Battlewagon just can't last long enough to throw enough dice to do damage. So I tried to make a list that could do damage at a distance.

Maybe look at buggys for a cheaper more usefull source of fast moving shooting support.

And have you tried 15 burnas in a BW they tend to make an awfull mess of anybody you dont want to fight in hand to hand.

I don't think they are that much cheaper. A twin-linked rokkit buggy would be at minimum 35 points to a TL Rokkit Deffkopta's 45. Buggy is 1 wound open topped vehicle, DK has 2. S7 AP3 hit 50% to wreck or remove only weapon from (and make completely useless) open topped squadroned buggy, 83% to cause 1 wound to DK. Plus DK are Jet Bikes, 3+ turbo boost cover save, move over terrain and models, and come in mobs of 5 instead of squadrons of 3.

I would like 15 Burnas in a BW IF they were not the #1 target on the board.
Edit: And they would take 15 of my Lootas away.

I haven't got that much experience with orks but Twin Linked BS 2 has a 55.555% chance to hit.. I don't see where you are getting 67% from :S

Anyways onto the list. I agree with what everyone has said so far.. your list isn't all bad.. it just lacks synergy.

You seem to be mixing a kan wall list / speed freaks / shooty list. Other armies this may be able to work well with but orks, as said before, work best with target saturation.

If you are stuck on the idea of having 45 Lootas at this point limit (which is still very good) you do take away one of the biggest threats our army can have, 15 burna boyz in a wagon. It is a very destructive squad and would get target priority - however, take that with a squad of 8-10 nobz kitted with wound allocation shenanigans in a dedicated battlewagon.. with armour 14 and a 4+ cover save? With decent terrain you should be able to hide a battlewagon fully anyway and it just means they have a very tough decision to make. They target your burnas first, and your nob wagon rolls up and wrecks face, or the burnas roll up and use the broken rule of open topped + template = death

It is just that - at 2500 points, it is very hard to make a dominant list other than one filled with battlewagons with 4+ cover saves to be successful due to the FoC :S

I used to think that the Twin Linked BS2 chance to hit was 5/9, too, until I played this weekend and I saw players rolling twice the dice for TL weapons, the idea being that that is how many dice you would roll if every die on the first roll missed. That started me thinking that if you roll two die for every TL shot, then it would double your chance to hit. Would you say my thinking is wrong?

I agree with you about the target saturation, but, like I said before, the problem with those Grey Knight Force weapons is that they just instant kill my 2 wound Nobs. 30 Slugga Boyz can take Normal 1 wound Terminators, but their Purifiers' Cleansing Flame and 2 wound Terminators just wipe them out. That is why I am trying to use ranged attacks. I've decided to drop 6 Koptas for 2 more 2 DDCW 2 Mega Blasta Deff Dreads to bring me up to 13 Mega Blastas on the list. They did great against the GK Terminators, and the Lootas chewed up the light armour and infantry. Maybe together they will work.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:I don't think they are that much cheaper. A twin-linked rokkit buggy would be at minimum 35 points to a TL Rokkit Deffkopta's 45. Buggy is 1 wound open topped vehicle, DK has 2. S7 AP3 hit 50% to wreck or remove only weapon from (and make completely useless) open topped squadroned buggy, 83% to cause 1 wound to DK. Plus DK are Jet Bikes, 3+ turbo boost cover save, move over terrain and models, and come in mobs of 5 instead of squadrons of 3.

I would like 15 Burnas in a BW IF they were not the #1 target on the board.
Edit: And they would take 15 of my Lootas away.

Buggies are vehicles and thus are immune to the LD issues that plagues deffkopters also being a Vechles means they get a +4 save from the KFF not the +5 that infantry gets also they have more use for blocking LoS etc and even with AV 10 and open toped they still have move surviablity then deffkopters.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ghenghis Jon wrote:I used to think that the Twin Linked BS2 chance to hit was 5/9, too, until I played this weekend and I saw players rolling twice the dice for TL weapons, the idea being that that is how many dice you would roll if every die on the first roll missed. That started me thinking that if you roll two die for every TL shot, then it would double your chance to hit. Would you say my thinking is wrong?

I agree with you about the target saturation, but, like I said before, the problem with those Grey Knight Force weapons is that they just instant kill my 2 wound Nobs. 30 Slugga Boyz can take Normal 1 wound Terminators, but their Purifiers' Cleansing Flame and 2 wound Terminators just wipe them out. That is why I am trying to use ranged attacks. I've decided to drop 6 Koptas for 2 more 2 DDCW 2 Mega Blasta Deff Dreads to bring me up to 13 Mega Blastas on the list. They did great against the GK Terminators, and the Lootas chewed up the light armour and infantry. Maybe together they will work.

I am not a fan of tailoring BUT if you are really getting sick of GKs maybe try Killer Kans to deal with paladins lots of durable S10 attacks and cleansing flame dosent bother it.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:@ Waaaghboss: I used to use grots, but a squad of 10 plus Runtherd is 40 points. 10 Boyz are 60. That extra 20 points gets me a lot more quality attacks and toughness.

@ MFletch: I have 18 Nob Bikers, Snikrot, the other Kommando Nob, a Big Mek w/KFF, 15 Koptas, 2 Battlewagons, 2 Trukks, 7 Artillery pieces, 6 Kanz, 1 Deff Dread, 30 Lootas, and uncounted boyz.

I do not like boys in trukks as my assault force because the trukks are so easily wrecked, then the less than 12 Boyz who survive the explosion are too few to be effective after they are whittled down as they walk across the board.

Because of the FOC, I can take 3 Battlewagons as my heavy support, but that means I can't take any artillery or Killa Kanz with their S8 shots.

As only Nobs can take a Battlewagon as a dedicated vehicle, I'll need 2 Warbosses to make 2 mobs of them troops and keep my Elite slots open for the Lootas. With the Warbosses taking up HQ slots, I can't take KFF Meks to shield the Battlewagons.

I like the idea of Snikrot, but only if I put a Warboss or two with him to make him really effective. I did bring him to the preliminaries, but since the rounds are timed, twice (Kill Points and Victory Points scenarios) I did not make the roll to bring him in and the Kommandos were counted as destroyed against me. Plus, I have destroyed more with Lootas than anything else, so I do not like exchanging 15 of them for him.

I like the Kans over the Artillery because of their mobility, and they can fire AP2 Mega Blastas without getting hot. I had a practice match before the Semi-Finals with 9 AP2 Zzap Gunz and 9 ammo runts, and although they hit well, they were not consistent enough Strength to be as effective as Mega Blastas with no ammo runts.

As for Kannons, they are only AP3, and for what they do, I have 15 mobile Koptas.

My second list is like the Kan Wall idea shielding the "main" force of 30 Mob Boyz across the board, except that the Kanz are the "main" force.

Oh I see, I hadnt realized the change in points

Back before I quite was around 3rd edition, where if I remember correctly they were like 1/3 the cost of a boy. I had dreams of painting up the 100 or so ugly as sin plastic 2nd ed grots and just bogging a table down :(

Is there any real use for them now? Maybe a cheap shield for lootas?

waaaaghboss wrote:Is there any real use for them now? Maybe a cheap shield for lootas?

Incredibly cheap meat shield/scoring unit. That and a good laugh.



Ghengis, it sounds like you are pretty set on playing whatever funky list you have and dont really want the advice thats been given, which is pretty standard ork tourney advice. There are tons of ork army lists, but only a couple that are tourney worthy.