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How? i run a few marines or necron and really, how do i beat these guys?

Warboss on bike with PK
7-9 Nob Bikers with various equipment
12 boys in a trukk with PK
12 boys in a trukk with PK
12 boys in a trukk with PK
12 Shootas in a BW with Big Shoota
BW has a big blast plate gun
i think it was 1750pts

That's not a speed freaks list, that's just a mechanized ork list.

A Speed Freak list has a ton of bikes, buggies, wartracks, and other fast vehicles.

To beat what are facing involved being able to penetrate AV11.

He has a lot of small, vulnerable units in that army. As cliche and cheesy as it sounds, use fire discipline. Focus on one trukk (AV 11) and wipe out the boyz. Running 12 boyz is bad for the orks because once they are out of their vehicles, you can wipe them out pretty easily with their either 6+ or nonexistent armor save....

What units do have to fight with? That will make it easier to discuss set up and which units to focus fire with and what not

This is very similar to the list I run, and I tend to mince necrons. Focus on the trukks, one at a time. They're AV 10, not 11. Use veil of darkness to keep your necrons out of charge range.

Nob bikers are trickier. You want lots of S 8 AP 2 shots. That'll ignore feel no pain and instant death them.

There really is no point in giving advice if you don't tell us what you are playing exactly.

So, all I can say right now, is if you kill those nobz fast, you will win the game. Anything S8 and up, preferably as a blast weapon, will do that.

Since you mentioned marines, Riflemen dreads are pretty good at bustin' trukks. If you have a pair of them, you can pop them on the flanks of your army as they can ping up that brattlewagon too. Typhoons are also great trukk/boy killers, and with their speed you can zip away from trouble or zip up the flank to provide a menace for the side armor of the battlewagon.

But what DO you have access to?

Very much disagree with targeting suggested.

You shoot all your lascannons and missiles at the battlewagon. You shoot all your heavy bolters and autocannons at the trukks. You have 4 transports to destroy. groups of 12 orks are easy to kill when foot slogging.

At the points range you need a cc threat, usually assault marines, this can deal with the nob bikers easily enough. Nob bikers have 18'' range so will be in melta distance which instant kills and ignores the FNP and leaves them with 5+ inv. save for an expensive unit this is not too bad.

MFletch wrote:Very much disagree with targeting suggested.

You shoot all your lascannons and missiles at the battlewagon. You shoot all your heavy bolters and autocannons at the trukks. You have 4 transports to destroy. groups of 12 orks are easy to kill when foot slogging.

At the points range you need a cc threat, usually assault marines, this can deal with the nob bikers easily enough. Nob bikers have 18'' range so will be in melta distance which instant kills and ignores the FNP and leaves them with 5+ inv. save for an expensive unit this is not too bad.

Yes, let us hurl our lascannons and missiles at the AV14 front of a brattlewagon, which an ork player would face towards you. Not to mention lascannons are so common in such large numbers in marine lists. Enjoy that whilst I zip up the side and hurl said missiles into its juicy AV12 side armor. Typhoons are great for smashing lone battlewagons in lists with no lootaz, they are pretty much built for it.

And since when is a unit of assault marines going to deal with nob bikers "easily enough"? wounding them on 5+? unless sarge has a fist? I'm guessing you're refering to BA assault marines, since vanilla doesn't get melta wielding assault marines. Still and assault marine though, they'd get krumped by a unit of tricked out nobs.

Actually, my five nob bikers with warboss butchered 10 assault marines+chaplain just yesterday without losing a single wound, how are they supposed to stop 7-9 of them? The warboss will take that one melta shot and maybe even save it.

MFletch wrote:Very much disagree with targeting suggested.

You shoot all your lascannons and missiles at the battlewagon. You shoot all your heavy bolters and autocannons at the trukks. You have 4 transports to destroy. groups of 12 orks are easy to kill when foot slogging.

At the points range you need a cc threat, usually assault marines, this can deal with the nob bikers easily enough. Nob bikers have 18'' range so will be in melta distance which instant kills and ignores the FNP and leaves them with 5+ inv. save for an expensive unit this is not too bad.

The heavy what? I havent seen a HB in a marine list in ages...
Anyway, why would you shoot the BW with lascannons before the AV10 open topped transports are gone? Its not like the BW is that much more of a threat than the normal truuks. And lascannon vs AV 14 is not a good idea.

The Orks have no way of dealing with Mech. Sure the Boyz can pop a Rhino if somewhat lucky with the PK but then they will die the next turn. 30 Orks is a very dangerous thing to face with Marines, 12 not so much.

The only thing this list has going for it is the big diversified Nob squad.
Assault Termies with Thunderhammers will make quite a mess of Nobs. So will Vindicators. And so will plain ol missiles (at least after you have put a couple of unsaved wounds on the Warboss).

tedurur wrote:

The heavy what? I havent seen a HB in a marine list in ages...

Hey! I'm talking up Typhoons here, don't knock my HB!


If only I could make it an AC for free or 5points or something cheap like that, to avoid the shame of my heavy bolter...





jokes aside, it does mesh well with frag missiles on the Typhoon. Outside of that...yeah... maybe if you have 45p spare to spend on a razorback for your longfangs/dev's, maybe you'll see a HB there

Jihallah wrote:

MFletch wrote:Very much disagree with targeting suggested.

You shoot all your lascannons and missiles at the battlewagon. You shoot all your heavy bolters and autocannons at the trukks. You have 4 transports to destroy. groups of 12 orks are easy to kill when foot slogging.

At the points range you need a cc threat, usually assault marines, this can deal with the nob bikers easily enough. Nob bikers have 18'' range so will be in melta distance which instant kills and ignores the FNP and leaves them with 5+ inv. save for an expensive unit this is not too bad.

Yes, let us hurl our lascannons and missiles at the AV14 front of a brattlewagon, which an ork player would face towards you. Not to mention lascannons are so common in such large numbers in marine lists. Enjoy that whilst I zip up the side and hurl said missiles into its juicy AV12 side armor. Typhoons are great for smashing lone battlewagons in lists with no lootaz, they are pretty much built for it.

And since when is a unit of assault marines going to deal with nob bikers "easily enough"? wounding them on 5+? unless sarge has a fist? I'm guessing you're refering to BA assault marines, since vanilla doesn't get melta wielding assault marines. Still and assault marine though, they'd get krumped by a unit of tricked out nobs.

I thought a BW was AV13.

You thought wrong. In the age of the internet, I who lack an ork codex at home (I gotta retrieve my stuff from my mates garage >< ) seriously just googled a PDF of the codex dude. Check your facts plox before posting up nothing but "I thought wrong"

Jihallah wrote:

tedurur wrote:

The heavy what? I havent seen a HB in a marine list in ages...

Hey! I'm talking up Typhoons here, don't knock my HB!


If only I could make it an AC for free or 5points or something cheap like that, to avoid the shame of my heavy bolter...





jokes aside, it does mesh well with frag missiles on the Typhoon. Outside of that...yeah... maybe if you have 45p spare to spend on a razorback for your longfangs/dev's, maybe you'll see a HB there

Heh, the HB on the Typhoon kinda sliped my mind. But I have a sneaking suspicion that he wasnt talking about the Hb on the Typhoon

take some high strength guns to insta kill the nob bikers, and most shooting weapons stand a chance of popping the trukks
...basically just shoot the highest threats first

Jihallah wrote:You thought wrong. In the age of the internet, I who lack an ork codex at home (I gotta retrieve my stuff from my mates garage >< ) seriously just googled a PDF of the codex dude. Check your facts plox before posting up nothing but "I thought wrong"

You don't even have to go illegal. The GW homepage has the AV posted right below the product description.

I wonder why everyone suggest storm hammer terminators. I am way more afraid of lightning claws, as they will kill nobz before the klaws strike, and even get rerolls and bonus attacks. A charging mob of 7 nobz(without warboss) still brings 16-17 attacks(hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s or 3s) to bear on the terminator armor at I4, which will kill quite some hammer terminators before they even strike. In the end you might kill one or two models, but do less wounds overall.

I agree with Jidmah on the claws/hammers debate. Thunder hammers on every termie means that all my boyz are swinging AND my nob is swinging with his power klaw. By the time you go, I have hit you with the strongest CC round that this unit can possibly achieve.

For the above list, target priority is key. Battle wagon can really lay some pain if it has a deffrolla and makes it to your lines, the nob bikers are going to shoot and assault very well, and the trukkers are going to put some damage if they end up hitting on infantry. Spend turn 1 destroying the trukks and bikes, turn 2 focusing on the BW and the remaining bikes. Turn 3 and beyond just go where the major threats are now.

-cgmckenzie

Jidmah wrote:

Jihallah wrote:You thought wrong. In the age of the internet, I who lack an ork codex at home (I gotta retrieve my stuff from my mates garage >< ) seriously just googled a PDF of the codex dude. Check your facts plox before posting up nothing but "I thought wrong"

You don't even have to go illegal. The GW homepage has the AV posted right below the product description.

I wonder why everyone suggest storm hammer terminators. I am way more afraid of lightning claws, as they will kill nobz before the klaws strike, and even get rerolls and bonus attacks. A charging mob of 7 nobz(without warboss) still brings 16-17 attacks(hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s or 3s) to bear on the terminator armor at I4, which will kill quite some hammer terminators before they even strike. In the end you might kill one or two models, but do less wounds overall.

You shouldnt be. TH&SS Termies is a lot better at taking out Nobs than LC termies.

Lets assume 8 Nobs, 4 BCs and 4 PKs vs 7 Termies. The termies will get the charge 4 times out of 5 (or so) so lets assume the termies are charging

7 Termies with LCs will then hit with 14 attacks which which will result in 7,7777 wounds. Since the squad is diversified you will only have a ~45% chance of killing a single Nob. You will then average ~5,2 unsaved wounds for combat res

Lets say that we have two BC wielding Nobs with Sluggas and 2 with combi shootas, thats 14 attacks.
14 * (2/3) * (5/6) = 7,7777 wounds ~1,3 Unsaved wounds or ~1 wound in the event that one Nob dies from the LC attacks

4 Nobs with PKs = 12 Attacks
12 * (2/3) * (5/6) = 6,666 wounds ~4,44 unsaved wounds

Nobs lose combat by ~ 1, next round its 7-8 Nobs vs 1 LC termies

vs 7 TH&SS Termies
BC Nobs does ~1,3 unsaved wounds.

5.7 TH&SS Termies gets 17,1 attacks
17,1 * (1/2) * (5/6) = 7,125 wounds = 4,75 Unsaved wounds which causes ID, so 9,5 wounds for combat res

12 * (2/3) * (5/6) = 6,666 wounds ~ 2,222 Unsaved wounds


Nobs lose combat with 6 ~3-4 TH termies left and 3 Nobs

Hum, that seems to have quite some errors(BC are two-handed, LC confer bonus attacks). I'll redo that with a more realistic combination of nobz(the units I field):
7 Nobz: 3 PK, 3 BC, painboy, Waargh! banner, diversified
5 Bikernobz: 2 PK, 2 BC, painboy, Waargh! banner, diversified, Warboss
7 Assault Terminators either all SS/TH or all LC

Nobz(charging SS/TH)
I4
- 'urty syringe 4 attacks -> 2.66 hits -> 2 wounds -> 0.33 unsaved wounds
- big choppas 12 attacks -> 8 hits -> 6.66 wounds -> 1.11 unsaved wounds -> one terminator dead
I1
- powerklaws 12 attacks -> 8 hits -> 6.66 wounds -> 2.22 unsaved wounds
- thunderhammers 12 attacks -> 6 hits -> 5 wounds -> 3.33 unsave wounds, instant death
-> 4 dead terminators, 3 dead nobz, orks lose combat by 2

Nobz(charging LC)
I4
- 'urty syringe 4 attacks -> 2.66 hits -> 2 wounds -> 0.33 unsaved wounds
- big choppas 12 attacks -> 8 hits -> 6.66 wounds -> 1.11 unsaved wounds
- lightning claws 21 attacks -> 10.5 hits -> 7.88 wounds -> 5.25 unsaved wounds
I1
- powerklaws 12 attacks -> 8 hits -> 6.66 wounds -> 4.44 unsaved wounds
-> 6 dead terminators, no dead nobz, orks win combat by 1

Biker Nobz(charging SS/TH)
I4
- 'urty syringe 4 attacks -> 2.66 hits -> 2 wounds -> 0.33 unsaved wounds
- big choppas 8 attacks -> 5.33 hits -> 4.44 wounds -> 0.74 unsaved wounds -> one terminator dead
I1
- powerklaws 14 attacks --> 9.33 hits -> 7.77 wounds -> 2.59 unsaved wounds
- thunderhammers 12 attacks -> 6 hits -> 5 wounds -> 3.33 unsaved wounds, instant death
-> 4 dead terminators, 2 or 3 dead nobz(depending on whether the warboss took a wound), orks lose combat by 2 or 1

Biker Nobz(charging LC)
I4
- 'urty syringe 4 attacks -> 2.66 hits -> 2 wounds -> 0.33 unsaved wounds
- big choppas 8 attacks -> 5.33 hits -> 4.44 wounds -> 0.74 unsaved wounds
- lightning claws 21 attacks -> 10.5 hits -> 4.66 wounds -> 3.11 unsaved wounds
I1
- powerklaws 14 attacks --> 9.33 hits -> 7.77 wounds -> 5.19 unsaved wounds
-> 6 dead terminators, no dead nobz, orks win combat by 3

TH Termies (charging nobz)
I3
- 'urty syringe 3 attacks -> 2 hits -> 1.5 wounds -> 0.25 unsaved wounds
- big choppas 9 attacks -> 6 hits -> 5 wounds -> 0.83 unsaved wounds, one terminator dead
I1
- powerklaws 9 attacks --> 6 hits -> 5 wounds -> 1.66 unsaved wounds
- thunderhammers 18 attacks -> 9 hits -> 7.5 wounds -> 5 unsaved wounds, instant death
-> 3 dead terminators, 5 dead nobz, orks lose combat by 7, can't rally

LC Termies(charging nobz):
I4
- lightning claws 28 attacks -> 14 hits -> 10.5 wounds -> 7 unsaved wounds, potentially killing three if they fail two saves, most likely just one
best case, no nobz die:
I3
- 'urty syringe 3 attacks -> 2 hits -> 1.5 wounds -> 0.25 unsaved wounds
- big choppas 9 attacks -> 6 hits -> 5 wounds -> 0.83 unsaved wounds, one terminator dead
I1
- powerklaws 9 attacks --> 6 hits -> 5 wounds -> 3.33 unsaved wounds
-> 4dead terminators, 0 dead nobz, orks lose combat by 3
worst case, 3 nobz die
I3
- 'urty syringe 3 attacks -> 2 hits -> 1.5 wounds -> 0.25 unsaved wounds
I1
- powerklaws 9 attacks --> 6 hits -> 5 wounds -> 3.33 unsaved wounds
-> 4dead terminators, 0 dead nobz, orks lose combat by 3

TH Termies (charging biker nobz)
I3
- 'urty syringe 3 attacks -> 2 hits -> 1.5 wounds -> 0.25 unsaved wounds
- big choppas 6 attacks -> 4 hits -> 3.33 wounds -> 0.55 unsaved wounds, one terminator dead
I1
- powerklaws 11 attacks --> 7.33 hits -> 6.11 wounds -> 2.04 unsaved wounds
- thunderhammers 18 attacks -> 9 hits -> 7.5 wounds -> 5 unsaved wounds, instant death
-> 3 dead terminators, 5 dead nobz(assuming no attacks on warboss), orks lose combat by 7, warboss can rally

LC Termies(charging biker nobz):
I4
- 28 attacks -> 14 hits -> 7.77 wounds -> 5.19 unsaved wounds, potentially killing two nobz if they fail two saves, most likely just one
best case, no nobz die:
I3
- 'urty syringe 3 attacks -> 2 hits -> 1.5 wounds -> 0.25 unsaved wounds
- big choppas 6 attacks -> 4 hits -> 3.33 wounds -> 0.55 unsaved wounds, one terminator dead
I1
- powerklaws 11 attacks --> 7.33 hits -> 6.11 wounds -> 4.07 unsaved wounds
-> 5 dead terminators, 0 dead nobz, orks lose combat by 2
worst case, 2 nobz die
I3
- 'urty syringe 3 attacks -> 2 hits -> 1.5 wounds -> 0.25 unsaved wounds
I1
- powerklaws 11 attacks --> 7.33 hits -> 6.11 wounds -> 4.07 unsaved wounds
-> 4 dead terminators, 0 dead nobz, orks lose combat by 3

TL;DR:
You were right, TH/SS are more scary, though charging them is probably still an option, though difficult if they ride a landraider.

Focus on the Trukks first, you want them all destroyed or wrecked on turn 1 preferably.
As for Nob bikers i find dreadnaughts do well against them or units with lots of power weapon attacks, also make sure they are allways charging you in cover so you can get them rolling dangerous terrain aswell.

BCs are 2 handed indeed. Forgot about that and the 'urty syringe. The fact that LC Termies have 4 attacks on the charge is very much accounted for so the impact on the result is minimal at most.
(You even got the exact same numbers with the LC as I did so Im not sure why you would point out an "error" that obviously isnt an error?)

Im also not sure why you consider 5 Nobz a more "realistic" unit. The OP says he is facing 7-9 Biker Nobz, to me 8 fit that number better than 5...

But yes, as I said. TH&SS Termies are better than LC termies.

jidmah, your math hammering is impressive... I think I'll print your analysis to bring it always with me...

About speed freaks... I faced such a list only a few times... but I want to throw some opinions:

-try to stop as many vehicles as possible... In each turn try to at least stun as many trukks as possible and leave the BW in the end... in turn 2-3 it will probably show you its tasty Side armour... But this is just my opinion... others thin instead that you should alway try to destroy trukks or concentrate fire on the BW.
- But always shoot some long ranged Heavy strenght weapon against Nob Bikers...try to inflict some ID wound on those guys... do not waste S7 or less weapon against them. If you field a Vindicator instead place it in the rear and offer a bait combat squad to the nobz, then proceed to wipe them out with the demolisher... I wiped out the unit in this way (but I have to admit that I was doing a little list tayloring... I don't usually field vindies.. I used it because i knew i was going to fight Nob bikerz).
- when you destroy a trukk or even the BW, the 12 boyz inside are very vulnerable but do not underestimate the Boss pole, that allow them to reroll LD ... even with Ld 7 they can pass the test pretty often... concentrate your fire on one unit until you have obliterated it... in addition , if you can't move a unit out of charge range think twice before rapid firing these orks... denying them the charge sometimes is more useful,
-As jidmah has said, hammernators are ALMOST ALWAYS better than LC termies against orks, because they are better against nobz and, even if LC termies will do better against boyz, i think that a cc qith a boys mob is always the wrong place for termies.

tedurur wrote:BCs are 2 handed indeed. Forgot about that and the 'urty syringe. The fact that LC Termies have 4 attacks on the charge is very much accounted for so the impact on the result is minimal at most.
(You even got the exact same numbers with the LC as I did so Im not sure why you would point out an "error" that obviously isnt an error?)

Im also not sure why you consider 5 Nobz a more "realistic" unit. The OP says he is facing 7-9 Biker Nobz, to me 8 fit that number better than 5...

But yes, as I said. TH&SS Termies are better than LC termies.

Sorry, I misread your post and assumed 14 were the inital amount of attacks.

7-9 biker nobz + Warboss is unrealistic and massive overkill. Kind of like fielding two squads of assault terminators in landraiders. In a 1750 point game, that unit is well about half of your points, so taking it out quickly will leave four squads of boyz who will each struggle to down Tac Squads and a battlewagon with a horribly overpriced and bad gun.

However, "unrealistic" was more aimed your unit composition, and not meant as an attack. A unit of nobz should always have a Waagh! Banner, a pain boy, and no more than 1/3 of the models equipped with klaws. Any nobz beyond 7 probably don't have a special weapon at all, gaining the extra attack from wielding two ccw. A Warboss should also always be babysitting nob bikerz, due to leadership issues and for catching S8/9, so you have to factor his additional attacks in for the combat. No point in winning against nob bikerz without warboss, if the warboss simply smashes three of your terminators into the ground and makes you lose combat.

I also said I was scared of LCs, so obviously I did the math for me

punkow wrote:jidmah, your math hammering is impressive... I think I'll print your analysis to bring it always with me...

Let's just say, I was really, really bored at work and company regulations prevent me from installing vassal on my machine.

The Nobz had the Waagh banner in my calcs as well. Thats why they are hitting on 3s. The Pain Boy matters not in the calcs vs something which ignores armour but ofc he should be included in the unit.

This Squad is exactly 8 nobs first of all.
Second, people forget that Ork Bikers (Nobz too) always having a 4+ cover
Third i know the Nobz have the following
One Painboy
One Single Claw Nob
One Double Claw Nob (dont ask me)
One Boss Pole
One Waaagh Banner
And the Warboss travels with them
He has a claw

Config2 wrote:This Squad is exactly 8 nobs first of all.
Second, people forget that Ork Bikers (Nobz too) always having a 4+ cover
Third i know the Nobz have the following
One Painboy
One Single Claw Nob
One Double Claw Nob (dont ask me)
One Boss Pole
One Waaagh Banner
And the Warboss travels with them
He has a claw

First of all, you said 7-9 in the OP. So we are working with the info you gave us- thanks for letting us know its 8
Second, one guy seems to have missed the whole 4+ cover save when he said to melta them since they only get a 5++. The same guy who suggested using Lascannons on the brattlewagon was better than Typhoons to zip up the flank and hit the side armor of the battlewagon. So, uh, yeah, take that as you will. You can safely assume those who are talking like they've played vs orks a fair bit/actually play orks are pretty damn aware those bikes have a 4+ cover save.
Third, thanks for giving us the gear selection. I'm sure Jidmah will now give you some mathhammer.
fourth unsaid point- Double claw nob? I AM going to ask you about that. Why is he fielding a double klaw nob??? 25p for an extra attack? huh? You're struggling vs this guy ?

Jidmah wrote:

Jihallah wrote:You thought wrong. In the age of the internet, I who lack an ork codex at home (I gotta retrieve my stuff from my mates garage >< ) seriously just googled a PDF of the codex dude. Check your facts plox before posting up nothing but "I thought wrong"

You don't even have to go illegal. The GW homepage has the AV posted right below the product description.

Ssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! You're not meant to say that

Ya turns out that the double klaw is only in the unit because he really loves that model. In fact, its the only ork model he loves.
The rest of his tactics are pretty sound, as you can tell by his list.

I'm pretty sure you can't have a double claw unit, cause you replace a choppa with claw and then you can replace the slugga with a gun, not another claw. Otherwise you could run a mek with a mega armor, kustom forcefield, shock attack gun, on a bike...which would be rather silly(and awesome)

As a speed freak player, I'm way more pissed off when my trucks get killed than when people shoot at my battlewagon. Look at all of his vehicles as just transports for whats inside and you realize that all his transports are easy to kill except one, and all his transports have the same stuff inside, so it'd be silly to shoot the battlewagon unless you had too.

A necron guy i play against has the habit of Deepstriking his monolith behind my hoard and then getting all those strength 6 shots against the back armor of my vehicles and he usually gets a few.
I don't play with any nob bikers so good luck with that one!

He has no KFF. You are struggling vs a mech ork list with no KFF. Please post what you have/are fielding so we can get an idea why.