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Setup: a shooty unit on the 2nd floor of a standard Cities of death type ruin (built using a typical GW ruins model).
An enemy unit moves under the floor directly below the shooty unit, but fails the assault roll.
Question: would you play this as the shooty unit NOT having LoS looking strait down (since the standard GW floor sections are solid for the purpose of letting you put models on them) or would you abstract that 2 units inside the same ruins can see each other (looking between the broken floor and wall sections, etc)?

Can you draw line of sight from the firing models heads to the enemy models? If not, you can't target them.

You can't see them. TLOS means that you look from the eyes of the firing model to the target.
If you have a superman model, then he can probably see through the floor, but "normal" models canot.

I could, for example, be on one side of a solid wall with an enemy unit o the other side.
I can move 'through' the wall (with a difficult terrain test) and I can assault 'through' the wall (again with a difficult terrain test), but I cant shoot 'through' the wall because I can't establish a line of sight.

time wizard wrote:You can't see them. TLOS means that you look from the eyes of the firing model to the target.
If you have a superman model, then he can probably see through the floor, but "normal" models canot.

I could, for example, be on one side of a solid wall with an enemy unit o the other side.
I can move 'through' the wall (with a difficult terrain test) and I can assault 'through' the wall (again with a difficult terrain test), but I cant shoot 'through' the wall because I can't establish a line of sight.

The move through the wall is an assumption, depends how both parties decided to play ruins.

Crablezworth wrote:
The move through the wall is an assumption, depends how both parties decided to play ruins.

Main rulebook, page 4, top right hand column, give permission to move models through walls, closed doors and window, etc., unless both players agree that a certain wall, closed door, etc. is impassable.

The section on ruins affirms this on page 83 under the 'Walls, doors, ladders and lateral thinking' section. The question asked is "Should troops be able to move through walls if there is no door?" and this is answered further in the section with "Indeed, the normal rules for moving through difficult terrain allow you to do just this."

So the default is that your troops are allowed to move through walls and closed doors and windows with ease unless decided otherwise.

time wizard meant page 14 when he said page 4; I would imagine his key stuck, or his finger slipped.

At any rate he is quite correct, unless the wall in question is agreed impassable, it is merely difficult.

time wizard wrote:

Crablezworth wrote:
The move through the wall is an assumption, depends how both parties decided to play ruins.

Main rulebook, page 4, top right hand column, give permission to move models through walls, closed doors and window, etc., unless both players agree that a certain wall, closed door, etc. is impassable.

The section on ruins affirms this on page 83 under the 'Walls, doors, ladders and lateral thinking' section. The question asked is "Should troops be able to move through walls if there is no door?" and this is answered further in the section with "Indeed, the normal rules for moving through difficult terrain allow you to do just this."

So the default is that your troops are allowed to move through walls and closed doors and windows with ease unless decided otherwise.

And you know how they decided to play it in this instance?

Terrain is nothing until both parties discuss and agree how they want to play it, this whole idea of "default" seems predicated on the idea that GW somehow thinks you don't need to be on the same page as your opponent when it comes to terrain when in fact they state over and over and over again in the rulebook to discuss it pre-game.

Crablezworth wrote:And you know how they decided to play it in this instance?

Terrain is nothing until both parties discuss and agree how they want to play it, this whole idea of "default" seems predicated on the idea that GW somehow thinks you don't need to be on the same page as your opponent when it comes to terrain when in fact they state over and over and over again in the rulebook to discuss it pre-game.

In what instance?

And there are certain "default" conventions in the game, such as the terrain types on page 13 and the cover chart on page 21.

And yes, the last paragraph on page 13 says that you and your opponent should discuss terrain features before the game, but even page 83 reminds us that the more involved the rules for ruins are, the longer the game.
What is usually discussed is what area terrain consists of, which terrain features are impassable and the like.

If you and I were to play a pickup game together, and did not specify that certain walls or all walls were impassable, then I feel it would be safe for me to presume that walls can be moved through as per the rule on page 14.

@Kommissar Kel - Yes, that was indeed a stuck key on my keyboard, now repaired! Thanks for the heads up!

time wizard wrote:

Crablezworth wrote:And you know how they decided to play it in this instance?

Terrain is nothing until both parties discuss and agree how they want to play it, this whole idea of "default" seems predicated on the idea that GW somehow thinks you don't need to be on the same page as your opponent when it comes to terrain when in fact they state over and over and over again in the rulebook to discuss it pre-game.

In what instance?

And there are certain "default" conventions in the game, such as the terrain types on page 13 and the cover chart on page 21.

And yes, the last paragraph on page 13 says that you and your opponent should discuss terrain features before the game, but even page 83 reminds us that the more involved the rules for ruins are, the longer the game.
What is usually discussed is what area terrain consists of, which terrain features are impassable and the like.

If you and I were to play a pickup game together, and did not specify that certain walls or all walls were impassable, then I feel it would be safe for me to presume that walls can be moved through as per the rule on page 14.

@Kommissar Kel - Yes, that was indeed a stuck key on my keyboard, now repaired! Thanks for the heads up!

And if I dissagreed you wouldn't be more correct, we'd have to refer back to the most important rule and if we couldn't agree roll a 4+

Or you dont play the game. Or, if its a tournament the TO would decide - and if it was mine it would be that you use the default rules., so everyone is playing the same game.

Also, hav e a peak at the tenets and what it says about the TMIR. In a rules forum about discussing rules TMIR is functionally useless.

To me it seems like if this model was going to assault me from the bottom up why couldnt I shoot from the top down? Why would one have LOS but not the other?

Truck1458 wrote:To me it seems like if this model was going to assault me from the bottom up why couldnt I shoot from the top down? Why would one have LOS but not the other?

Shooting requires TLOS, where as assaulting does not.

Truck1458 wrote:To me it seems like if this model was going to assault me from the bottom up why couldnt I shoot from the top down? Why would one have LOS but not the other?

Some people like melting through walls/floors, some don't. I myself think it's stupid. Still, line of sight means just that.

I guess I can uderstand that. Chainswording through the floor does sound pretty BA

I'm curious, how do people play this when shooting from ruins out onto the battlefield? For instance I play orks, and getting 15 lootas into ruins and even giving them los to a window let alone los out of one is hard enough.
I've personally played it that if you can draw los to and from the ones in the windows, they can all fire. I generally accompany that with killing off the lootas out of true los. More or less same reasoning, if% could walk through a wall, surely I can punch a hole in it

In that case i think the windows are just cosmetic. All units in ruins can shoot out just as they can be shot, atleast thats how I play it. They would just take the cover save when being shot at.

TLOS requires all models to see what they're shooting at

psyklone wrote:I'm curious, how do people play this when shooting from ruins out onto the battlefield? For instance I play orks, and getting 15 lootas into ruins and even giving them los to a window let alone los out of one is hard enough.
I've personally played it that if you can draw los to and from the ones in the windows, they can all fire. I generally accompany that with killing off the lootas out of true los. More or less same reasoning, if% could walk through a wall, surely I can punch a hole in it

If you can see you can shoot, same as ever. Cant see? Cant shoot.

Crable - so, how DO you play units getting up ruins? Do you only allow units to move up if there are stairs?

I guess thats what I ment. Most of the units would be positioned infront of windows in my case anyway.