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Hey guys I'm building an Ork Kan Wall. I realize that there are a lot of threads out there on this already, but they are all asking about their lists and I'm not. The list is pretty clear cut as you move from 1000 to 1500 to 2000 points so that part is not complicated. My question actually is about what to put behind the wall. I realize that behind the wall should be 1 to 2 Meks depending upon the point size of the game and mission. Following that should be gobs and gobs of boyz. Check and Check.

The boyz are where my question comes in.....
When discussing the cans everyone keeps mentioning the BS3 of the kans and how it is the best in the army. I agree completely that the Killa Kans have the best shooting capability in the Ork army however that point seems a little moot. What I mean is, should the BS matter for a unit that needs to be running for the first 2 turns to close on the enemy? We are really only talking about 1 possibly 2 rounds of shooting. So, if the discussion about the Kans is geared around shooting shouldn't the boyz be as well? Originally, when I built/glued my boyz together I intentionally took slugga/choppa boyz because I said "Self, there is no time to shoot when you're running for your life." However, the more and more I read about these mechanized walls it seems that if you slow down you have to be able to engage the enemy. So, it becomes worth it to take the shoota boy mobs with big shootas.

Just a thought I had. What do you all think? I've been painting my army and have yet to play this plan out so my experience is limited. I've been playing a truck force and though it is effective.....it doesn't have the same level of cool that a ton of walkers does. I mean at 1000 points 6 walkers and at 1500 9 walkers makes most people go...

Shoota boys are footsloggers. Slugga boyz are in trukks. That is the general rule of course i hate painting/modeling shootas so i ignore that. Shoota boyz have a ton of shots before assaulting and basically get to have a few free kills before charging in. Its worth losing one attack. They are also really good for camping objectives.

Regarding things behind the kans. 3 squads of at least 20 boyz i hear. IMO at least 25 because it makes me feel safer. 20 feels like i am skimping too much on the model count.

A traditional kan wall is not supposed to be running at the opponent, they are shooting and advancing. The running usually comes from people using slugga boyz rather than shootaz, due to them being dirt cheap from AOBR.

Here's also the number crunching that I did a few months ago that supports Shoota Boyz being used in Kan Wall:


Assuming a Pitched Battle Deployment and moving straight ahead, I have about two turns of shooting before assaulting.

It would take 6 turns of footslogging to cross the entire board without running.

Shootas are in range by turn 2; assuming no running. If the entire army (minus Lootas) ran on turn 1, on average Shootas should be in range ON turn 2 and advance slightly more.

1 mob of 30 Shoota Boyz consists of:
27 Shootas
2 Big Shootas
1 Slugga (Nob)

Running the core numbers, number of MEQs dead:
54 ((2/6) * (3/6) * (4/6) ) = 6 dead MEQs
6 ( ( 2/6) * (4/6) * (4/6) = .88 dead MEQs

Multiply this by 3 mobs, you get: 20.64 dead MEQs in one turn of shooting.

Over two turns, this shooting equates to 41.28 dead MEQs, which then assault. Assuming that 10 Boyz and the Nob are in range:

30( (3/6) * (3/6) * (4/6) ) = 5 dead MEQs

4 ( (3/6) * (5/6) ) = 1.67 dead MEQs

1 mob on the assault kills 6.67 MEQs. Multiply this by 3 mobs, you get: 20.01 dead MEQs in a single assault.

So over 3 turns, 61.29 MEQs died to Shoota Boyz alone. Assuming the points for a Tactical Squad in C:SM, 61 MEQs is 1038 points. 90 Shoota Boyz costs 705 points. So each Boy kills 11.533 points of MEQs, which is 46.08% more than the cost of an Ork Boy.

I have no idea why I assumed that there would be 2 Big Shootas in a mob of 30, but I think the point still stands.

Also don't worry about giving cover saves to the units you're shooting at (unless the unit you're shooting at has a save of 6+); Shootas are AP6!

Jidmah wrote:A traditional kan wall is not supposed to be running at the opponent, they are shooting and advancing. The running usually comes from people using slugga boyz rather than shootaz, due to them being dirt cheap from AOBR.

Sure, and I can see that. However, the army is really slow and it seems to me that my engagement range will be an issue. Shoota boys can't engage until they hit 18 inches. So, I've got to hustle to that point. The only way to enage before that would be to plink away with the rockets on the kans and buy some lootas so that I can pop stuff from 48 inches away. Otherwise, wrap it up cause it is over. Can't walk from my deployment zone and honestly expect to kill the enemy with my shooting. Sure, 30 shoota boyz with big shootas can roll a truck load of dice, but if it takes too long to get into combat it might not matter. So, I've got to let it hard to midfield and beyond so that my deep ranks will be able to engage as well.

If you assume the distance from the last boy in your unit to the edge of your deployment zone is 6", that would allow the boyz to shoot at any model within 30" of your board edge on turn 1, everything withn 36" of your board edge on turn 2. Add Snikrot, and your opponent will find himself between a rock and a hard place. Lootaz should be mandatory for kanwalls anyways.

Note that most commonly used anti-infantry fire is 24" range, so either they aren't shooting you, or you are shooting them. Few armies can survive multiple intact mobs charging them.

Also, "A truckload of dice" is the real point here. Shoota boyz will easily outshoot any bolter-wielding unit of same point costs. Now add the 4+ cover save and you will find yourself weathering much more fire than the unit should be able to, so simply marching at them is an option.

Of course, if your opponent castles up, kanz won't have anything to shoot either. Feel free to run then.

One of the weaknesses of the Kan Wall army (And Orks in general... we have precious few long range weapons) is their engagement range. At 24" you can use your Rokkits, and at 18" you can use your Grotzookas and Shootas. At 6" Your Deff Dreads can start lighting things on fire.

I complement my Kan Wall army with Rokkit Buggies that zoom around and shoot at targets of opportunity, but they don't mitigate the fact that my army usually spends the first 2 turns firing very little. What is awesome is the fact that by turn 3, most of my army is still alive and kicking enough to table an enemy that hasn't taken a single casualty yet.

So, assuming that we are not playing dawn of war my movement should look something like this....

Turn 1: Setup on the 12" deployment line. Move and Run. (minimum of 7 inches moved). Puts me 19 of 48 inches across the table.
Turn 2: Move 6 (across mid-field) and engage with rockets on armour. Puts me at 25 of 48 inches across the table.
Turn 3: Move 6. Puts me at 31 of 48 inches across the table. (My first game will be 1000 pts; 6 kans, 79 boys, 1 mek). So, assuming I've lost 1/3 of my force to shooting at that point I'll still be shooting 4 kan rockets and over 50 boyz.
Turn 4: Move 6. Puts me at 37 of 48 inches across the table. Another boat load of dice get dropped at this point.

Thoughts?

Sounds about right. Unless you get stuck with Dawn of War deployment, you should be halfway across the board by the end of turn 2.

6 Kans in a 1000 pt army isn't really a "Kan Wall" really. You're not going to be able to hide 80 Boyz behind 6 Kans.

If you give your Kans Rokkits, they should be able to fire turn 2/3 depending on if your enemy is advancing towards you or not. Grotzookas and Boyz should be engaged by turn 3.

Kan Walls ain't fast - as above, they usually walk and shoot every turn. Some players therefore complement their main Wall with deffkoptas or buggies or kommandoes to do some dameage (and provide some distraction) in the first turn or so. That does suck up some points though, so tends to suit only higher point lists.

Murrdox wrote:Sounds about right. Unless you get stuck with Dawn of War deployment, you should be halfway across the board by the end of turn 2.

6 Kans in a 1000 pt army isn't really a "Kan Wall" really. You're not going to be able to hide 80 Boyz behind 6 Kans.

If you give your Kans Rokkits, they should be able to fire turn 2/3 depending on if your enemy is advancing towards you or not. Grotzookas and Boyz should be engaged by turn 3.

I agree about this not being a true Kan Wall because it isn't made up of 9 Kans. However, I'm forced to only gear for 1000 points. My local shop is playing a 2000 pt team game where each player brings 1000 pt. My partner and I think it would be fun if we combined his blood angels and a miniture kan wall. I can field enough to go speed freaks as well as I think that might be a better compliment for his angels fast movement. Anyway, that is why the 1000 points.

You're right again with putting 80 models behind 6 is going to be tough. It would take some tricky deployment to get my 30,29(Mek goes here),20 man units to fit. I've considered dropping the 20 or even making some sort of adjustment to the units to sneak a small nob unit in as well. That way I can better hide behind the wall.

I'd rather field more kanz than more boyz. It's hard to beat boyz in terms in efficiency, but kanz do just that.

Generally I'd go for 3 units of 20 rather than 2 of 30. I find having an extra unit more important for objectives. Especially if you are fielding shootas, which is really the best way to go for Kan Walls. Even with slaggas, being able to assault more things at once seems more important than surviving a bit more. Remember that with horde armies there is very little chance you'll get a charge with more than half of your boys close enough to hit anyways. That being said, boys before toys man, I myself drop down to 6 Kans at 1000 points too, as I find they are not as useful as more boys after the first 2 turns.

And as people say, yeah, you move and shoot, you dont just run. I regularly outshoot my tau opponent that way, and it definately does some significant damage to more competent armies. Enough to force the enemy to deal with me, especially with more melee oriented armies.

Even if the Kans are slower than your boys with big enough mobs you can outrun them and still have most of your squad in cover.