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I am brand new to this warmachine game and just a little overwhelmed with how everyhing works, especailly with the concept of tiers and list building.

I plan on buying my entire 35pt army in one go, and im am torn between several themed armies(I like the models involved). The three themes are Major Victoria Haley(Gravediggers), Captain Kara Sloan(Gunslingers), and Captain Jeremiah Kraye(Mobile Strike Force).

I know I am asking alot but...what are some of the pros and cons of these armies, how would i go about building the list, and what suppestions do you make for any of those themes.

*Edit* I really do like the Cyclone warjack model and wonder if he can be incoperated.

If you are brand new to the game I would *highly* recommend that you look at a 15 point list or a battle box. I would not worry about Tier lists unless you are really into the fluff. Most of them do not give you much of the way of in game value vs the restrictions that they put on you. I'd just pick the units that you like.

If you are not interested in the Cygnar Battlebox (and it isn't all that) then buy your caster of choice and then a jack and a unit. The plastic heavy jack kit can be magnetized so you can use all three jacks. Both the cyclone and defender are nice jacks.

Otherwise I would suggest that you buy a unit of gunmages with the officer. It is really hard to go wrong with these guys as they are a great unit. I think that would give you a couple points leftover for a squire. And if you go with Sloan then you will want Reinholdt the mercenary.

That should put you around 15 points depending on the warjack points that caster gives you. It will also be models that you will probably get alot of use of in the future.

As for what the casters like to be paired with i would suggest you check out the Battle College.

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/home

Hazard30 wrote:I am brand new to this warmachine game and just a little overwhelmed with how everyhing works, especailly with the concept of tiers and list building.

I plan on buying my entire 35pt army in one go, and im am torn between several themed armies(I like the models involved). The three themes are Major Victoria Haley(Gravediggers), Captain Kara Sloan(Gunslingers), and Captain Jeremiah Kraye(Mobile Strike Force).

The list building in Warmachine is a task of finding synergies or combos between models and using these modules composed of couple of minis to make the end result more than sum of it's parts. There are two ways to combine lists in WM/ Hordes: the open and themed lists. In open lists you can select what you want from the army list and mercs that work for your faction. In themed lists you have to build the army from the allowed models in the list, but gain some benefits in doing so. As you are just beginning to play I would suggest you use the themed lists only as the guide, but build lists using all of the choices available. Most of the themed lists are hard to play competitively and are limited in scope in addition they usually require multiples of units that you won't use out side that theme list.

Of the casters you mentioned Haley is a all around support caster, Sloan is a ranged combat specialist and Kraye is jack caster. Units that work well with all of these are Rangers, the gun mages that already were mentioned and then the basic jacks. All of the cygnar heavies that can be built from the plastic kit are good, you cannot go wrong magnetizing the kit. Kraye and Sloan like Hunter light jack and Haley can also benefit from them.

I concur with Mordekiem's opinion that get one caster and add jacks to reach to 15 points and play couple of games at that point level to get a grasp at how the game plays. Good resources to get started are Battle college and Forward kommander army composition site forwardkommander.com .

I am leaning towards Sloan, and less towards the other too. I enjoy the idea of snipers and big guns. The reason why I planned on using themed list is because my friends are planning on using themed lists.

First, I agree with the above comments that a smaller game is much better for learning the rules first.

Sloan's theme list is very specialized, and, while that can work, I find that, especially while learning, a more well-rounded army is best.

Regarding the other two themes,
Haley's is pretty good. The biggest problem is trenchers are slightly overpriced, and don't work with every caster all that well. If you like trenchers, I'd recommend this one, though eHaley is considered one of Cygnar's best casters, so it might not be the best starting place, as I think that learning with a middle of the road piece will be better in the long run. It has its problems, but it's a pretty fun little army.

Kraye is a bad idea to start with. He has good rules and is rewarding, but is very different from typical warcasters, is more vulnerable, and makes his warjacks act in unusual ways (which is a bad idea when starting out the game.

I have to suggest the Cygnar Battlebox being your first purchase.

Making a 35pt list purchase before even playing the game is a recipe for models sitting on shelves.

Once you know the rules, you will have a better idea what you like about the gameplay, and which models you want to have.

Example, I have a full unit of Long Gunners w UA.
If I had played the game first, I would not have bought them.
I would have gotten Gun Mages or Stormblades instead, as I find the LG to be too costly in points for my liking.
Now I have the full unit that I never use, after getting used to my casters and my preferred style of play.

If you buy models based on looks, ignore all of the above.

Hazard30 wrote:I am leaning towards Sloan, and less towards the other too. I enjoy the idea of snipers and big guns. The reason why I planned on using themed list is because my friends are planning on using themed lists.

My issue with theme lists is they are not all created equal. Some are competitive and some are not. Also, you really want Reinholdt the Goblin Merc with Sloan. Getting two shots instead of one is huge. I also understand that she works really well with defenders and hunters.

Some general advice. Combined arms is usually the way to go. You have a shooty caster, but ranges are so small that you will need smoe roadblocks to slow down the badguys. Also remember that while shooting can be good you are probably only going to have a couple turns to shoot. Even the longest range guns are going to have bad guys in their face in a turn or two after shooting. The game is built and designed about getting up close and personal. Hanging back and sniping isn't usually a great tactic, especially if you are playing scenarios.

I was thinking about running something like this for my first 15pts game. im not sure if it follows the combined arms

Captain Kara Sloan 6
Hunter 6
Hunter 6
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator 1
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts) 6
Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer 2

IF there are any suggests to improve or maybe even give a good Hailey list, it is welcome

Hunters are good but I can't stand running more than one of them myself (they die to easily for me). I would consider dropping the Gun Mage UA and Reinholt (it kills me to say it as a Sloan player) and switch that 2nd hunter for a Defender. Now you not only have a big gun, but another threat to casters as well as a jack that can mix it up in melee.

The one thing I would check is that your friends dont intend it to be 15 points of Mangled Metal/Tooth and Claw (only caster/jacks lock/beasts).

Going to 25 you'll want to add back in Reinholt, the Gun Mage UA, given you 7 points worth of options (probably a melee unit and a solo).

I agree with Casper, you really need to have a heavy jack in the list. The reason will become obvious to you once a enemy heavy is barreling your way. With the shooting you have, you can stop warjack, but beasts are easier to heal and will be coming your way even after that one punishing broadside.

When you are expanding to larger point value games get a melee roadblock unit in there, for example swordknights or boomhowlers are good roadblocks.

A Defender will serve you well. It will be strong both as a
ranged attacker and as a heavy melee 'jack. Just not on the
same turn.

My only input for you would be that although shooting ... can... in somewhat exclusive circumstances... win games, more often than not it doesn't.

If you want a lot of guns, then Cygnar is your faction. But you have to approach it with the right mindset; Cygnar is going to rely on its ranged attacks to drop opponents' numbers to a point where they are manageable in melee.

Even your shooting lists will still be in melee, and therefore need to function in melee. This isn't 40k where you can rely on a bunch of cheap units with big guns and buckets of dice (like DE raider spam, IG AV12 spam, BA/SW Razorback spam, GK psyspam) to simply blow your opponent off of the table. When relatively new players start out, shooting looks powerful because Cygnar forces models off the table at 14 inches+ while most other lists don't. Once you get more experience, you realize that ranged advantages can be circumvented entirely by special abilities or spells and whacky combos; when Deathjack excarnates a single Bile Thrall into your ranked up Long Gunners and you watch 6 or more guys disappear in a spray of acid, or eSkarre feats and you literally cannot shoot her, Nightmare, Deathajck, or Bane Lord Tartarus while they sprint into B2B with your guns, you just kinda wonder what the point to all your bullets is.

Ranged-heavy lists tend to be matchup prone, and the first time you come up against eLylith and realize what SHE can do for a ranged-heavy list you just might ragequit. I would strongly suggest, as others have, that you start with a 15 point army list to get 'the basics'. At 15 points Cygnar is actually quite potent because Cygnaran warcasters/feats tend to be more powerful than the norm.

So if Sloan isn't the right choice what should I build around Hailey?

Typically a melee heavy (the stormclad fits the bill, in her theme list), Thorn, pieces with reach or ranged attacks (to take advantage of her feat) are a good place to start.

if you like trenchers, her regular theme list works, but if you just like eHaley and want to run in-theme, her NQ theme list is considered one of Cygnar's best (storm theme: can take many storm things and gunmages, though T4 is expensive, requiring 2 storm striders)

I feel trenchers are very one-dimentional and rather pick up some troops that are more available to all warcasters.

I think I will pick up the plastic warjack kit and magnitize the arms, gun mages, sword knights, a hunter, sloan and/or haley and maybe some rangers. How does that sounds?

I've had great luck with a Gun Mage Officer marshaled Cyclone. Getting all of those special shots is just nuts---and the Officer really force multiplies (an already good) Gun Mage unit. They are solid with any caster I've played with.

Trenchers seem pretty weak for their cost to me.

My favorite two melee heavies are a Stormclad and Ol Rowdy. The Stormclad is just a beat stick from hell and Ol Rowdy is really focus efficient.

It is really hard to go wrong with a defender and a unit of Gun Mages and the officer (UA).

You will not use them with every caster and with every list, but they are in most Cygnar lists for a reason. Especially the gun mages.

Mordekiem wrote:It is really hard to go wrong with a defender and a unit of Gun Mages and the officer (UA).

You will not use them with every caster and with every list, but they are in most Cygnar lists for a reason. Especially the gun mages.

Defender also gets out a lot when Siege or Sloan is leading the pack. When I'm building Siege list I start with Reinholdt, Squire and Defender for obvious reasons.

Epic Haley - As others have said, well round, high Focus, very much a manipulation caster who has good Def. She supports ranged lists more then melee, but still is solid with units and Jacks that do melee.

Jacks/Units that are very good with her:

Stormclad - best melee Jack we have and it can shoot. She makes it faster and supports its def & ARM

Thorn - you will really like him, too many abilities to mention

Gunmages + UA (Unit Attachment) - They give a Defender or Hunter some mean abilities when Jack Marshalled to the squad. Add in Haley's shooting ability and the fact she makes them Def 17 with Deceleration = awesome unit.

If I were to suggest a purchase all at once and you wanted "PoleDance" Haley - This is a 35pt list:

Major Victoria Haley
Thorn
Stormclad
Squire
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer
Defender
Journeyman Warcaster

Da-Rock wrote:
If I were to suggest a purchase all at once and you wanted "PoleDance" Haley - This is a 35pt list:

Major Victoria Haley
Thorn
Stormclad
Squire
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer
Defender
Journeyman Warcaster

Although this truly isn't a bad list, it's more or less forced to go for the assassination whether by defender snipe or the 'Thorn/clad bullet' (Haley using TK and warjack bonds to chuck a loaded 'jack a zillion inches up table to go for a caster kill).

I'd suggest getting some Precursors or Stormswords in there (basically a fighty unit) just so that fast or infantryspam lists don't force you to burn your feat defensively just to avoid being tarpitted. The most obvious cuts to make points would be downgrading Thorn to a regular Lancer and dropping the Defender.