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Grenadiers:
Grenadiers are detachments of the empires strongest and usually biggest men. They are a regiment of hard hitters, and they can take punishment, too.
The grenadier tradition means that grenadiers are unlikely to run from combat, and can form tight lines of disciplined fighting troops when necessary.

14 points per model
WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8
Marksman:
WS3 BS5 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8
Sergeant
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A2 Ld8

Wargear:
Handgun
Light armour
Socket Bayonet
Hand weapon

Special rules:
Fire by rank
State troops
Stubborn
Dying breath

This unit may only be a parent unit.

Options:
May have a musician for 7 points
May have a SB for 14 points
May have a Marksman for 10 points
A marksman may have a Hochland long rifle for… 15 points
A repeater handgun for… 20 points
A brace of pistols for… 15 points.

N a marksman who takes any kind of special weapon can no longer benefit from his bayonet.

Socket bayonets
Socket bayonets turn a handgun into a weapon with the handguns usual ranged profile, but a close combat profile of a spear.

Ranked fire:
Ranked fire is the same as volley fire, except it applies to handguns. It is, for all intents and purposes the same as volley fire otherwise.

N this is because otherwise the idea of 40-strong fighting squads would not be used as much, that would defeat the purpose in my mind.

Dying breath:
For every model who is removed from play as a casualty of combat [and would be eligible for an attack.] must roll a D6. on a 4+, the model may still make its attacks. [as if it had not been killed] the model still counts for combat resolution and is still removed from the regiment.
While this rule applies to impact hits, it does not apply to models lost while charging and coming under fire from a stand and shoot reaction.

^ this is sort of like a weaker version of FNP, and is to represent reduced toughness.

Idea sounds alright but not sure how useful this unit would be

Basically your using up special points to have a handgunner unit that is marginally better in CC but then in CC they're just T4 spearmen with marginally better ld and the ability (if you choose) to stand and shoot. If you wanted socket bayonets then each of these fellows would be the cost of x2 greatwords, who are much better at surviving combat, and also more expensive than chaos warriors! Also 20 points for a standard bearer? Ouch, not even knightly orders pay that much.

What would you suggest then? Dip the points to ten and divide the price of command by 2?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Scipio Africanus wrote:Grenadiers:
Grenadiers are detachments of the empires strongest and usually biggest men. They are a regiment of hard hitters, and they can take punishment, too.
The grenadier tradition means that grenadiers are unlikely to run from combat, and can form tight lines of disciplined fighting troops when necessary.

10 points per model
WS3 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I3 A1 Ld8
Marksman:
WS3 BS5 S3 T4 W1 I3 A1 Ld8
Sergeant
WS4 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I3 A2 Ld9

Wargear:
Handgun
Light armour
Plug Bayonet
Hand weapon

Special rules:
Fire by rank
State troops
Stubborn

This unit may only be a parent unit.

Options:
The unit may choose to replace its Plug bayonets with one of the following.
Ring bayonets… 1 points per model
Socket bayonets… 2 points per model
May have a musician for 5 points
May have a SB for 10 points
May have a Marksman for 10 points or a sergeant for 15 points
A marksman may have a Hochland long rifle for… 15 points
A repeater handgun for… 20 points
A brace of pistols for… 15 points.

N a marksman who takes any kind of special weapon can no longer benefit from his bayonet, but this does not excuse him from the price of a bayonet.

I don't think there's much point in plug, ring and socket bayonet options. Experience shows that people will quickly deduce the best option, and use that almost exlusively.

You also need to take a look at what you're charging for what you get here. With socket bayonets you're up to 20 points a model, for guys who are basically handgunners with volley fire and spears. Considering you can get buy two spearmen and a handgunner and come out cheaper than your price, and I really don't think WS and T increases make up for that. Probably better to drop all the bayonet options and just give them socket bayonets as part of the 16 point cost, then playtest with an eye to maybe lowering the price by another point or two.

There's also a problem with that sergeant going into the game with LD 9. This is the Empire we're talking about here, unless the army takes Karl Franz he'll have as high a leadership as any model on the field, and there's some Empire builds where he'll be the general. Better to just leave them at 8. If you want them to be really dependable think about Stubborn.

I need to have a hero to be the general, that's in the rules book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I need to have a hero to be the general, that's in the rules book.

Scipio Africanus wrote:I need to have a hero to be the general, that's in the rules book.

Oh well I guess then it's perfectly sensible to have the highest leadership model in the army to be an unnamed grunt.

Or if you want to, you can then talk about the silliness of the rules as written meaning the general's lower leadership would actually override the Ld 9 of the Grenadier's champion if they were within 12". This is a funny problem with the rules as written, because GW never considered a unit that would go onto the field with higher leadership than the army's general.

Or you can we move past debating all that rules minutiae silliness and get around to really, properly considering whether the best way to represent a particularly disciplined unit would be to give them an elite, high quality general level of leadership, instead of considering stubborn or immune to psychology options.

I like the idea of having Grenadiers for Empire, it'd be a cool asset.

sebster wrote:
Oh well I guess then it's perfectly sensible to have the highest leadership model in the army to be an unnamed grunt.

Or if you want to, you can then talk about the silliness of the rules as written meaning the general's lower leadership would actually override the Ld 9 of the Grenadier's champion if they were within 12". This is a funny problem with the rules as written, because GW never considered a unit that would go onto the field with higher leadership than the army's general.

Or you can we move past debating all that rules minutiae silliness and get around to really, properly considering whether the best way to represent a particularly disciplined unit would be to give them an elite, high quality general level of leadership, instead of considering stubborn or immune to psychology options.

Work the body, man, work the body!

Polonius wrote:Work the body, man, work the body!

What's funny is he made the other changes I recommended, but not the one about leadership...

Leadership reduced

T4, Really?

you are saying that these, albiet slightly above average, examples of humans are just as hard to wound as Ogres, Chaos Warriors, Saurus, and Orks?


Keep them T3, otherwise you will be decimating these other armies.

How do you suppose that I represent their toughness then? they need to be above average in some way.

Give them stubborn or some other special rule that represents their elite aspect.


the game stats arn't entirely linear. They more accuratly represent an exponential increase, as such there would be considered High and Low ends to a T level.

Saurus could be considered low level T4, while Ogres could be considered high level T4, Chaos warriors would be in the middle.


And you must consider that one point increase of any stat will have an exponential effect.

Against Str3 attacks, T4 is 25% better then T3, T5 is 33% better then T4, and T6 is 50% better then T5. against Str3 anyway.

Against Str4 attacks, T4 is 50% better then T3...



By making them just one point of toughness more, you actually increase their durability significantly.

Grenadiers throw grenades. Hence the name. That's their most interesting aspect. They got strong guys because strong guys can throw grenades further. And they had to be at the front because you don't want a bunch of dudes with lit bombs behind your main line.

You've made the 1700s Grenadiers, which is way late even in Empire terms.

But I will tell you, they won't put even a knife in the hands of a BS4 troop because they'd be afraid he would use it. BS4 is an expert marksman. A champion. His job, no matter how big he is or curly his mustache, is to be BS4 far away from the fight.

On a philosophical point, even if you balance everything right:

Empire's gunline is what is for a reason. This was brought up in another thread, but some races have tough gunline troops (Dwarfs, Ogres, Daemons) and some have more horde-like. But "MOST" times an army book is going to give one flavor. Otherwise you start losing distinctiveness among the army books.

@ DukeRustfield: Grenadiers aren't necessarily men who throw grenades. Certainly during the industrial revolution and around that period that was their original purpose, but for at least 100 years now they are a type of soldier, usually heavily armed and well trained. Although you may have been saying that at a similar time period in our history in comparison to that of the Empire, they would have been armed with grenades ("hence the name") some leeway can be given that this world and that of Warhammer are different, and there is no real reason why the Empire shouldn't have a regiment known as 'Grenadiers' to represent them as the more modern term in our (and our predecessors') culture.

However, if Scipio Africanus want's to change from rifles to grenades, go for it. Blast them to pieces

The term 'Grenadiers' leaves a pretty open range of ideas for regiment composition; it's really up to you. Remember Warhammer isn't particularly accurate in historical representations in relationship to rules, so it's no biggy if you bring in a broader terminology for 'Grenadier' a little early.

In regards to the Socket Bayonet: they're not long enough to be a spear, nor large enough to be a halberd. However they are a effective buffer against cavalry, and hence I think they should negate cavalry charge bonuses. You could also introduce Armour Piercing, to represent at least some benefit in combat without it being as effective as a specifically designed cc weapon (such as the spear, halberd or great weapon). For Ranked Fire, I would suggest (instead of having volley fire) the enemy must take a leadership test if they lose 1 or more models to the Grenadiers, to represent the terror instilled by accurate disciplined fire - something that regular Empire troops seem to do very little. I like the Dying Breath rule, but maybe change it's name to something like 'Steely Resolve', just to show that they fight for as long as they can due to their determination to fight for their race until death.

Well that's about it
-Guardian_Phoenix

Volkgrenadiers and grenadiers are all normal infantry. There is no reason for there to be grenades, and in the 19th century, a grenadier was just a big guy who could hold himself in combat.

Also, How the hell am I going o represent grenades without replacing the rifle for which all line infantry tactica was designed?

Agreed, stick with the heavy infantry idea.

Guardian_Phoenix wrote:@ DukeRustfield: Grenadiers aren't necessarily men who throw grenades. Certainly during the industrial revolution and around that period that was their original purpose, but for at least 100 years now they are a type of soldier, usually heavily armed and well trained.

I said that already. But Empire isn't based on the 1900s. Or even the 1800s.

Modern armies have cavalry units as well that ride in tanks or helicopters or whatever. But no one would expect an Empire unit of "cavalry" to be some force of mini steam tanks.

Scipio Africanus wrote:How do you suppose that I represent their toughness then? they need to be above average in some way.

Perhaps some kind of 'dead hard' ward save, at 6+ it could represent hardened troops shrugging off wounds that would put an ordinary soldier out of action?

A 6+ ward save is about half as good as the jump from T3 to T4, for most situations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:And you must consider that one point increase of any stat will have an exponential effect.

Against Str3 attacks, T4 is 25% better then T3

33% better. As in, 6 hits at Strength 3 will wound 3 T3 models, but only 2 T4 models, and 1 - 2/3 = 33%

Dying breath:
For every model who is removed from play as a casualty of combat [and would be eligible for an attack.] must roll a D6. on a 4+, the model may still make its attacks. [as if it had not been killed] the model still counts for combat resolution and is still removed from the regiment.
While this rule applies to impact hits, it does not apply to models lost while charging and coming under fire from a stand and shoot reaction.

sebster wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:And you must consider that one point increase of any stat will have an exponential effect.

Against Str3 attacks, T4 is 25% better then T3

33% better. As in, 6 hits at Strength 3 will wound 3 T3 models, but only 2 T4 models, and 1 - 2/3 = 33%

That doesn't seem right, you're not counting their starting %.

4+ is 50% wound
5+ is 33% wound

4+ is 52% better than 5+.

.5/.33 = 1.515

.33 * 1.515 = .5016 (or pretty close to 4+ on a 6-sided die)

Of course, that's just for Str. 3. Against other strengths it's better or worse a % increase in terms of results.

DukeRustfield wrote:That doesn't seem right, you're not counting their starting %.

4+ is 50% wound
5+ is 33% wound

4+ is 52% better than 5+.

.5/.33 = 1.515

.33 * 1.515 = .5016 (or pretty close to 4+ on a 6-sided die)

Your 52% figure is wrong, a product of you dividing by rounded numbers. 4+ is exactly 50% better than 5+. I mean, just think about it, 3/6 is by definition 50% better than 2/6. Then everything that follows cancels itself out, dividing by .33 then multiplying by .33 is just going around in circles, getting you back to the original number (or it would if there wasn't another rounding error).

The rounding mistake and redundant division and multiplication masked where your number differed from mine - you took the difference of 1/6, and then divided by the new value of 1/3, whereas I divided by the starting value of 1/2.

I gave the percentage change in going from 1/2 to 1/3 - 33%. You gave the percentage difference in going from 1/3 to 1/2 - 50%. This was a mistake, because we're looking at upgrading a stat from the Empire standard of 3 to 4 for these grenadiers, so you track the movement in relation to the original position - so you say the difference between T 3 and 4 (16%) is 33% better than the original position (1/6 / 1/2).

Of course, that's just for Str. 3. Against other strengths it's better or worse a % increase in terms of results.

Yeah, for simplicity I just mentioned going against Str 3, if GreyTemplar wanted to go back and recalculate his numbers against other strengths that was up to him.