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A battle report detailing a 1500 point RTT game between GiantKiller's outdated Lash CSM list and a Hybrid Tau.

http://www.theruleslawyers.com/2011/09/trials-by-fire-1500-point-lash-chaos-giantkiller-vs-tau/

Enjoy!

-GK

Nice batrep!
I really liked your discussion about the psychhammer, aka soft comp scores/sportmanship, and i agree that its a bad idea... i mean think about those in ...say football, chess or any other competitive game. Amounts to 'Ok you were the better player, but i still beat you, because i thought less well of you, than you though of me' ...!

Wow, that was pretty crappy first-turn shooting from your opponent. He has lots of Pathfinders and can't blow up a Rhino?

Tau "off-codex" units (from FW and WD) are not that great (to put it mildly) so it is not a big deal if one wants to handicap themselves with them.

As for the skimmers, Devilfish and Hammerhead actually have Landing Gear, so they can land every turn, thus flying bases are not actually necessary. This is useless in 5th Edition rules, but was pretty useful in 4th.

Why did he bring such a soft list to a tournament? Anyway, I agree with the comp score for sportsmanship. It's one thing if you actually are being TFG, but it's another if you have a poor sports, whiny opponent.

Pathfinders are Fast attack, just soes ya know

"Nice batrep! I really liked your discussion about the psychhammer, aka soft comp scores/sportmanship"
-LordofMuck

Thanks! This game in particular seemed like a good example to illustrate the points I wanted to make.

"i agree that its a bad idea... i mean think about those in ...say football, chess or any other competitive game. Amounts to 'Ok you were the better player, but i still beat you, because i thought less well of you, than you though of me' ...!"
-LordofMuck

In my opinion, "soft" scores and imprecise rules are two of the biggest obstacles standing in the way of 40k becoming a truly competitive game. It's unfortunate. Nobody would stand for a player having the ability to affect his opponent's ranking with something so subjective as "sportsmanship" in chess, MTG, tennis, etc. But in 40k it's commonplace. Even more unfortunate is the fact that it's typically the WAAC players abusing the soft scores in the first place.

"Tau "off-codex" units (from FW and WD) are not that great (to put it mildly) so it is not a big deal if one wants to handicap themselves with them."
-Backfire

I completely agree. This is a good example of when not to raise a stink despite an obvious rules violation.

"Pathfinders are Fast attack, just soes ya know"
-yamgrenade

Thanks! His list wasn't broken down by force org. slots, and the Tau 'dex is probably the one I'm least familiar with. It's by far the 'dex I've faced least in tourneys. I'll update the list.

"Why did he bring such a soft list to a tournament? Anyway, I agree with the comp score for sportsmanship. It's one thing if you actually are being TFG, but it's another if you have a poor sports, whiny opponent."
-Justus

I can't speak for his decision-making process, but I believe the tau player did well in most of his other games and finished in the top 3 overall. His army was beautifully painted. I suppose sometimes people bring lists because they've worked really hard on the models. My list wasn't much better in a mech-driven environment, but I brought it because it was all I had fully painted at the time =)

Thanks for reading, everybody!

-GK

While I agree with you in this case, I don't think competitive sports or competitions (of any kind) should allow bad sportsmanship. For terra's sake Football has a penalty for "unsportsman like conduct". Its a personal foul, so its a 15 yarder (football's highest) along with an automatic first down. Thats really serious.

So while it shouldn't effect your total score, sportsmanship should still be taken into account. Like perhaps rating your opponents sportsmanship, and if a player gets consistently poor scores from his opponents, he could be deducted points at the end of the tournament. So in that case, if someone is being tfg, they will pay for it. However, if some guy gets pissy about you ruleslawyering him, so long as your other opponents find you a decent opponent, you won't be penalized.

Just a thought.

I don't think 40k can ever become a truly competitive game. The updates between books have way to many months in between and are only one at a time. A truly competitive and evolving game needs to update all rules equally. Thats where warmahordes has the advantage, they add things to all books regularly, not just one book at a time every 4-6 months.

Awesome, insightful bat rep. As much as that guy was a douche, you held your water and thats good.

Great batrep! I really like CSM and Tau, good to see people using 'em! You sound like a sporting guy!
Sqallum

That tau player should go get his face kicked in by Beregond for such a terrible army list.

Justus wrote:Why did he bring such a soft list to a tournament? Anyway, I agree with the comp score for sportsmanship. It's one thing if you actually are being TFG, but it's another if you have a poor sports, whiny opponent.

5th Ed codex says that no Skimmer can land as they are engaged in combat. The landing gear is only utilized if immobilized (saving from a wrecked fate).

dabupp wrote:

Justus wrote:Why did he bring such a soft list to a tournament? Anyway, I agree with the comp score for sportsmanship. It's one thing if you actually are being TFG, but it's another if you have a poor sports, whiny opponent.

5th Ed codex says that no Skimmer can land as they are engaged in combat. The landing gear is only utilized if immobilized (saving from a wrecked fate).

HOWEVER, the Tau codex says that devilfish (and its variants), have a piece of wargear called "landing gear", which allows the vehicle to not count as a skimmer for that turn, so long as it didn't move. So, technically Tau skimmers may be placed directly on the table, however its a ridiculous proposition.

"While I agree with you in this case, I don't think competitive sports or competitions (of any kind) should allow bad sportsmanship. For terra's sake Football has a penalty for "unsportsman like conduct". Its a personal foul, so its a 15 yarder (football's highest) along with an automatic first down. Thats really serious."
-PraetorDave

I agree that poor sportsmanship should never be tolerated. However, to be enforced fairly, it absolutely must be enforced objectively. The sportsmanship scores you see in most tournament settings are far too subjective because it's the players assigning the scores and players are inherently biased and emotional. One thing to note about your football analogy is that in football, the sportsmanship is enforced by referees, not players. That's one way to ensure objectivity (assuming you have unbiased refs). In 40k tourneys, the judges, not the players, should be the ones enforcing sportsmanship. If they see some unsporting behavior, they can impose any penalty they feel is appropriate, be it a warning, a score penalty, a forfeiture, or complete disqualification.

"I don't think 40k can ever become a truly competitive game. The updates between books have way to many months in between and are only one at a time. A truly competitive and evolving game needs to update all rules equally."
-Doubled

I think 40k has the potential to be truly competitive, but it would require a complete shift in focus on GW's part. Clear, unambiguous rules written in simple, precise, uniform language with an eye toward current and future balance. Better scenarios. Better support for the competitive scene. All of these are incredibly important and absolutely necessary for a competitive game.

"Awesome, insightful bat rep. As much as that guy was a douche, you held your water and thats good."
-Benn Bloodmane

Thanks! I've found that keeping a calm head not only keeps from making bad decisions, but it goes a long way toward convincing the judges that you're the one in the right if a dispute comes up.

"Great batrep! I really like CSM and Tau, good to see people using 'em! You sound like a sporting guy!"
-Squallum

Thanks! Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think CSM are down and out yet, but my list was far from optimized. As for being a sporting guy, I do strive to prove that we rules lawyers aren't all bad =)

Once again, thanks for reading, everybody!

Your opponent should've used his Markerlights better; instead of upping the Ballistic Skill of his broadsides and Crisis Teams, he should've negated your smoke launcher and reduced the Leadership of your Zerkers and pin them. And telling your opponent that your Forgeworld 'X' Model does this in combat just smacks of hubris.

The problem with True Line of Sight is that different people have different opinions about what their models can and cannot see. The book is rather ambiguous in this factor, stating that if you only see (from the Models eye level) extremities (including the head) you technically cannot see the model.

I like out house rule where you need to see at least 25% of the model in order to shoot at it.

That's why I make fun of Tournaments whenever I go. I had a 1750 Drop Guard list with Meltas and Commissars and a single Leman Russ Demolisher. The funny thing is, I usually beat the WAAC players so badly that the winning bracket is actually filled with people that aren't fethheads.

Your opponent should've used his Markerlights better; instead of upping the Ballistic Skill of his broadsides and Crisis Teams, he should've negated your smoke launcher and reduced the Leadership of your Zerkers and pin them.
-StormForged

I completely agree. While they couldn't be pinned because they're fearless, the berzerkers needed to be addressed. But his player morale was low, and I believe he was worried that he'd fail to eliminate them and get charged by what was left. He was hoping to keep his fire warriors mech'ed up so he could put scoring units on the objective late game once he cleared mine off. When he figured out that wasn't likely to work, he quit.

The problem with True Line of Sight is that different people have different opinions about what their models can and cannot see. The book is rather ambiguous in this factor, stating that if you only see (from the Models eye level) extremities (including the head) you technically cannot see the model.
-StormForged

The book is actually fairly clear on the issue. The line of sight rules tell us "Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part of the body of at least one of the models in the target unit (for 'body' we mean its head, torso, legs and arms)." BGB p.16 (emphasis added). Even if you can only see the head, you can see the model.

Hope this helps!
-GK