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Here's something that has been nagging at me for awhile...the way the Twin-Linked Rules are set up, twin-linking a weapon doesn't improve the theoretical maximum damage so much as making it that a singular weapon is somewhat more accurate. For most intents and purposes, the 2nd gun is probably just firing tracer-rounds for the first (or might just be a Lasgun)...

Would altering Twin-Linked as follows be a gamebreaker?
-"Every hit with a twin-linked weapon counts as two hits. The weapon does not reroll to hit unless another available ability would allow it." "For Templates/Blasts, each model covered=Two models covered"

On one hand, it'd benefit Eldar rather nicely (Guide on Wave Serpents="Why yes, I effectively gained 9 Shuriken Cannon shots) though Orks would stand to benefit some in turn (Bikers/Buggies). It might make Spinefists worth taking again for Termagants relative to the humble Fleshborer option, while the Carnifex/Tyrant would become outright terrifying at range. Likewise, it might almost make it worth running a twin-linked weapon setup on the , or might make Reaper Autocannons less of a "Fail" option for Chaos. On the other hand...On the other hand, it'd make Venerable Dreadnoughts a scary scary unit (especially of the Grey Knight ilk)...

The army that would stand to benefit least from such a modification would be Dark Eldar, seeing as with exception of a few Twin-Linked Splinter Rifles on Venoms/Razorwings, they almost entirely lack them.

What would the general implications be for the game, were Twin-Linked to replace "reroll misses" with "Each hit counts as two" that I am missing?

It would be a pain in the proverbial behind to point because of how it changes things, the higher the BS and number of shots the more expensive it would be. generally speaking as a base line it should cost double instead of the current slight discount. It will also benefit the armies who currently don't get the most use out of twin linked (BS4 and up). If anyone cares to do maths knock yourself out.


As for maximum damage I see it differently as more consistency since 2 shots means more chance of damage.

Can you imagine what this would do to Broadsides?
"And so now my 240 point unit has achieved 6 strength 10 hits on your Land Raider. Did you say something about winning?"

I think a better change would be to make Twin-linked weapons reroll to hit OR wound/penetrate. you pick before firing.

The original idea I had was "Roll to hit if you attain a hit" but in practice this hurts Orks and the few BS 2 weapons they already have. And yes, right after I pressed "Submit" I went *Crap, Broadsides* (Then again, we all know they'll be nerfed next codex anyway...*cough*)

I wasn't aware there was any more ways to nerf Tau.


The onlyway they can go is up. I forsee all Suits having BS4 standard.

Grey Templar wrote:I wasn't aware there was any more ways to nerf Tau.

Be careful fool! They said the same about Sisters of Battle...

Anyway, Twin-linking...instead of "Counts as two hits", "each hit counts as two on a 4+?" perhaps? Would tone down the "double hits" bit, while making it less of a "screw you" to low-BS armies, and less of an advantage to high-BS ones?

You would have to rebalance a lot of units.


for some things like orks/gun drones/nids/whatever you can just say "eh, they could use the boost, metagame will fix it" but some things will just be ridiculous.


Broadsides. Psyflemen. Even regular riflemen.

Double hits, even on just a 4+, would make psyflemen downright broken and overpowered.

They would average 6 hits on average and could go as high as 8.


against infantry they will be wounding on 2s, so that is an average of 5 wounds that will cause instant death on most models.

The potential is there...but the average would still be 3.96 hits. (Current avg is 3.556).

4 shots, hitting on 3s. Approx 2.64 hits.

In turn, half of those are doubled...

What it would also do is make certain options more viable in turn. The conventional Land Raider would be something to fear, as would taking Lascannon Turrets for Predators. Eldar could run Lances on their Serpents or benefit more from Guide...I guess the real question is whether assorted benefits among armies have the potential to cancel thenselves out?

EDIT: What I wrote won't work. After some additional mathhammer, I found this actually nerfs BS 2 TL...so yeah. Discuss other stuff?

MagicJuggler wrote:The potential is there...but the average would still be 3.96 hits. (Current avg is 3.556).

4 shots, hitting on 3s. Approx 2.64 hits.

No. Your math is terrible.

As is: 4*8/9=3.555
Proposed: 4*2/3*2=5.333

BS 2 as is: 1*0.555=0.555
BS 2 proposed: 1*1/3*2=0.666

It is literally impossible for double shots to be worse than reroll misses.

I suggest you take "Algebra 1", or perhaps even a rudimentary statistics and probability class.

EDIT: And just in case you didn't realize, "double all hits" is exactly the same on average as "double the amount of shots you make"

And I suggest you take a course on Reading Comprehension...as I was discussing the math for "it doubles on 4+." Meaning half the shots that hit get doubled. Meaning average multiplication of hits would be 1.5...

The reason for "nerfs BS 2 TL" is:

A TL shot at BS 2 is at 1-(2/3)^2=5/9 hits/shot avg.
Making it "Shoot then double on 4+" makes the average (1/3)(3/2)=3/6=1/2. 1/2<5/9, ergo nerf.

The trouble is trying to keep the current twin-link boost to hit, while adding a little extra to represent having extra firepower, without making it completely unfair for armies with different ballistic skills.

I propose the following: to start, roll 2x as many dice to hit, capping the number of hits at the number of shots for your weapon. So a twin-linked heavy bolter rolls 6 dice, but can only get three hits total. As ph34r pointed out, rolling twice as many dice to hit is mathematically the same as the current twin linked rules.

The really new twist would be allowing any rolls of a 6 to count as additional hits. So for example, a guardsman shooting a heavy bolter rolls six dice to hit instead of three, and gets:

2, 4, 5, 1, 6, 6

That would be three hits (four rolls are 4 or better, but a heavy bolter normally has 3 shots). However, one of the "extra" hits is a 6, which now counts as and additional hit, for a total of 4 hits.

The current functionality is preserved (increasing the accuracy of low BS shooters) while hopefully adding a BS-independent mechanism for getting extra hits (everybody only gets extra hits if they roll 6's).

Hopefully this is clear... also I reasoned my way through this instead of busting out the math, so correct me if I'm wrong lol

That actually makes sense. The only problem I see is if you role a whole mess of sixes, which in the end, is the original poster's idea, except you need to be really, really lucky.

MagicJuggler wrote:And I suggest you take a course on Reading Comprehension...as I was discussing the math for "it doubles on 4+." Meaning half the shots that hit get doubled. Meaning average multiplication of hits would be 1.5...

The reason for "nerfs BS 2 TL" is:

A TL shot at BS 2 is at 1-(2/3)^2=5/9 hits/shot avg.
Making it "Shoot then double on 4+" makes the average (1/3)(3/2)=3/6=1/2. 1/2<5/9, ergo nerf.

Double all shots has the problem of being broken and pointless.
Double on a 4+ has all the same problems of doubling shots.

I think my earlier suggestion can be streamlined to fit better with the current twin-linked rules (and to make it easier to understand).

- Roll to hit as normal for a twin-linked weapon. For each roll of a 6 in this first roll, add an extra shot. Now re-roll any misses.

Way easier to follow, easier to actually execute in a game, adds a little extra oomph that's independent of BS.

Hmmm that wuodl give standard Chaos terminators a fair old boost.

A squad of five could land 20 S4 hits at 12" AND charge in with power weapons.

This is how the origonal rules were for TW weapons anyway.
I like them. they represent TW far better.

In all fairness OP I think you're trying to alter a rule which works perfectly fine, and is easy to remember in a battle. Don't change what isn't broken.

Vendetta Gunship.
130 points.
Six lascannon shots.

Nuff said.

I realise that, mathematically, a reroll on 4+ might look like two dice, but in actual game effect the ability for a 130pt model to wipe out a five man terminator squad and their captain in one round of shooting is a significant change to the power of the unit.

You know there is another option, fire both weapons at the same time. TL lascannon fired = roll twice to hit and then resolve zero to 2 hits on the wound or AV table.

What if it is a TL gun that already fire smore than one shot...like the assautl cannon....

Tl assault cannon would become S6, AP4 Heavy 8 Rending. ouchie.

JeneralJoe117 said:

In all fairness OP I think you're trying to alter a rule which works perfectly fine, and is easy to remember in a battle. Don't change what isn't broken.

QFT

In older editions TL did fire all shots instead of re-roll misses. I believe a TL AssCan was capable of 18 hits, they could also explode if you rolled poorly. I would be ok with "Tl assault cannon would become S6, AP4 Heavy 8 Rending. ouchie. " but I would also say that a AssCan that rolls 3 or more 1s would be rendered destroyed

Nah, thats just how Assault Cannons were.


you basically kepts rolling to hit till you missed or rolled multiple 6s or something. Multiple 6s and the weapon jammed permantly. They were fairly rediclous, like the current Supa-Gatla's "Psyco-Dakka-Blasta" rule.

Why not just allow TL weapons to re-roll To-Hit and To-Wound/Penetration?

Makes sense to me. The same logic applies for it being more accurate as to it being more damaging. "If the first shot doesn't get you, the next one might."

It doesn't have the slightly exponential power warping of the weapons doing extra hits, and it still boosts the average killing power simply by making them rather reliable on both ends on the roll.

If you go far enough back in the editions 2nd for example.
AssCans nominated decided either 1 shot or 1 to 3 sustained fire dice. the sustained fire die was a D3 that had one of the 3s replaced with a Jam symbol. If you decided to, you would roll the dice to see how many shots you would get that turn. You would then roll to hit for each shot. resulting in zero to nine shots per AssCan. For every jam you rolled you took one turn unjamming the gun. If you rolled 3 jams at once the gun either exploded or no longer functioned for the rest of the game (can't remember) It was a very powerful gun that had strong limits in place to BALANCE it.

Plasma pistols, plasma rifles, and eldar catapult weapons used the same dice system.

My main complaint is that twin-linking only helps with accuracy, when really it would have a bigger impact on killing power. So how about if we stick with the re-roll to hit as it is today, but if you do hit on the first try with no re-roll, you can re-roll to wound/penetrate instead. Even that (relatively small) boost works for me. Of course it still screws up the point values for all twin linked weapons...

CalgarsPimpHand
2011/09/29 08:10:13 Subject: Re:Would Altering the Twin-Linked Rules as follows be a gamebreaker?
My main complaint is that twin-linking only helps with accuracy, when really it would have a bigger impact on killing power. So how about if we stick with the re-roll to hit as it is today, but if you do hit on the first try with no re-roll, you can re-roll to wound/penetrate instead. Even that (relatively small) boost works for me. Of course it still screws up the point values for all twin linked weapons...

I would agree with this as an option, and without a raise in current points

It would be much safer to invent a new keyword for what you are saying, to ensure that anything with it was properly balanced. Changing twin linked would leave half the units with it totally unaffected and make the other half much better. That fact right there is a major imbalance.

Fluffwise, I agree. Twin-Linked in many cases is represented by extra guns, yet the extra shots only give an increase to accuracy, but then other times it's a single guy and he's just given an accuracy boost by magic or whatever. When I first started playing, I'll admit I felt pretty cheated putting a whole second gun on something and just getting a reroll out of it, regardless of the mathematical realities of that reroll. Very inconsistent fluffwise, but changing it seems dangerous.

SO maybe keep twin-linked and bring in "Double Barralled".

Double Barrelled woudl double the number of shots the weapon has. So a DB Lascannon is now Heavy 2, a DB Bolter is now 2 shots at 24" and 4 at 12" (you coudl also model this by havign a marine packign 2 botguns which woudl look pretty cool)