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Hey all, just played against an Ork player. He said because his squad size was 30, that his Ld was 30 as well. I told him it couldn't go more than 10, even if he has more than 10 guys. I can't prove it anywhere where I read this. So now since it's been a while since I played, I could be wrong. So what is it? I thought I read somewhere nobody can have more than 10 in Ld no matter what. He is claiming that Codex is greater than BRB so his Ld is 30.

Can you guys and gals give me page numbers one way or the other in exactly how this works please.

Did he show in the Codex where it said that he can have a leadership exceeding 10?

Dracheous wrote:Did he show in the Codex where it said that he can have a leadership exceeding 10?

Yes he did. It was Mob rule. I swore it said that it can never go above 10, but it didint. It said something about the number of Orks in the Squad, then they can use that as it's leadership number. Also something about being 11 or more they become fearless or some other type of rule. (It was 2:00am when we were discussing this.)

Not entirely correct, if an Ork mob numbers 11 or more it is fearless and MAY use the number in it's unit in replacement of it's leadership.

Show him the BRB Page 6. left column 4th paragraph.

this details how high or low characteristics are allowed to go.

(Can not be above 10 or below 0)

DeathReaper wrote:Show him the BRB Page 6. left column 4th paragraph.

this details how high or low characteristics are allowed to go.

(Can not be above 10 or below 0)

Which makes sense, because if you're fearless ((ie. 11 models or more)) your leadership no longer really matters much.

Thank you, that is where I need to show him, page 6. Problem is he is already saying that codex is greater than BRB but hopefully now that he sees that says "no modifiers may exceed a stat above 10 or below 0"

So the mob rules would be a modifier then so nothing above 10 then.

Thank you guys.

hsojvvad wrote:Thank you, that is where I need to show him, page 6. Problem is he is already saying that codex is greater than BRB but hopefully now that he sees that says "no modifiers may exceed a stat above 10 or below 0"

So the mob rules would be a modifier then so nothing above 10 then.

Thank you guys.

Right, so he's wrong in having Ld 30, but has fearless instead.

And if he's upset having Fearless instead of Ld 30, then I think you need new people to play against.

hsojvvad wrote:Thank you, that is where I need to show him, page 6. Problem is he is already saying that codex is greater than BRB but hopefully now that he sees that says "no modifiers may exceed a stat above 10 or below 0"

So the mob rules would be a modifier then so nothing above 10 then.

Thank you guys.

The underlined is not true.

The rule is Specific > General rules.

so you can have a specific rule in the BRB that overrides a general rule in a codex.

and yes something that modifies the orks leadership of 7 and makes it more, like mob rule, still can not go above 10.

hsojvvad wrote:Hey all, just played against an Ork player. He said because his squad size was 30, that his Ld was 30 as well. I told him it couldn't go more than 10, even if he has more than 10 guys. I can't prove it anywhere where I read this. So now since it's been a while since I played, I could be wrong. So what is it? I thought I read somewhere nobody can have more than 10 in Ld no matter what. He is claiming that Codex is greater than BRB so his Ld is 30.

Can you guys and gals give me page numbers one way or the other in exactly how this works please.

You wouldn't happen to be playing at Phoenix Games near Buford, GA would you?

No. His Leadership is 10 and the squad is Fearless. Characteristics can never go over 10.

GangstaMuffin24 wrote:

hsojvvad wrote:Hey all, just played against an Ork player. He said because his squad size was 30, that his Ld was 30 as well. I told him it couldn't go more than 10, even if he has more than 10 guys. I can't prove it anywhere where I read this. So now since it's been a while since I played, I could be wrong. So what is it? I thought I read somewhere nobody can have more than 10 in Ld no matter what. He is claiming that Codex is greater than BRB so his Ld is 30.

Can you guys and gals give me page numbers one way or the other in exactly how this works please.

You wouldn't happen to be playing at Phoenix Games near Buford, GA would you?

No I am not. Sorry not anywhere close to there. I am in Canada. Why it shows up as I am an American, I am not so sure. Last week it was Canadian and today it's American again.

Ah, just wondering. Had some friends play against an ork player recently that insisted on the same thing.

GangstaMuffin24 wrote:Ah, just wondering. Had some friends play against an ork player recently that insisted on the same thing.

My favorite is a local that always wants to use his 4th edition codex and 3rd edition ruleset for his 'Nid army ((or 3rd ed codex, 4th rule... something stupid like that)) so that he can have his geanstealers assault my tanks and as long as they don't explode he can continue on assaulting the next one, and next one, and next one... til one "explodes"...

This is indirectly covered in GW's Ork FAQ, in the question regarding a Weirdboy taking a psychic test.

Dracheous wrote:

hsojvvad wrote:Thank you, that is where I need to show him, page 6. Problem is he is already saying that codex is greater than BRB but hopefully now that he sees that says "no modifiers may exceed a stat above 10 or below 0"

So the mob rules would be a modifier then so nothing above 10 then.

Thank you guys.

Right, so he's wrong in having Ld 30, but has fearless instead.

And if he's upset having Fearless instead of Ld 30, then I think you need new people to play against.

I'd take ld 30 over fearless any day

he has leadership 10. That is as high as possible. But the Mob Rule means he counts as fearless, so Ld is no longer in question.

Detonator wrote:he has leadership 10. That is as high as possible. But the Mob Rule means he counts as fearless, so Ld is no longer in question.

Not entirely some things in the game skill go off of leadership, such as the Decievers "Pinning", Mind war etc

One thing that Ive aways wondered about is how it interferes with leadership modifiers: Lets say our brave boys are required to take an LD test at -5 LD. Is it:

a) LD= no of models = 30
30-5 = 25
LD cannot exceed 10.
Take test at LD = 10

b) LD= no of models = 30
LD cannot exceed 10
10 - 5 = 5
Take test at LD = 5

It is the first one, since it says you can substitute the number of boys for your LD score.

so LD 30 - 5 = 25LD, but it is a max of 10 so you roll at 10 (If fearless does not have any effect)

Eeps wrote:One thing that Ive aways wondered about is how it interferes with leadership modifiers: Lets say our brave boys are required to take an LD test at -5 LD. Is it:

a) LD= no of models = 30
30-5 = 25
LD cannot exceed 10.
Take test at LD = 10

b) LD= no of models = 30
LD cannot exceed 10
10 - 5 = 5
Take test at LD = 5

IMHO, its very clearly 'B'. That's because Ld modifiers are typically applied when the unit is taking a Ld test, and that test is taken against the UNIT's Ld value. The UNIT's Ld value is normally determined by finding the highest Ld value of a model within the unit, but in some cases units are able to replace this value with another, such as the Space Marine Rites of Battle or in this case the number of models in the Ork mob. That then IS the UNIT's Ld value for the test which then by the description of Morale check modifiers on pg 43 of the rulebook reduces the UNIT's Ld value for the test.

Contrast this with the old Witch Hunter's 'Book of St. Lucius', which specified that you always use the 'unmodified' Ld of the bearer.

If theres more than 10 in the squad they are fearless.

yakface wrote:

Eeps wrote:One thing that Ive aways wondered about is how it interferes with leadership modifiers: Lets say our brave boys are required to take an LD test at -5 LD. Is it:

a) LD= no of models = 30
30-5 = 25
LD cannot exceed 10.
Take test at LD = 10

b) LD= no of models = 30
LD cannot exceed 10
10 - 5 = 5
Take test at LD = 5

IMHO, its very clearly 'B'. That's because Ld modifiers are typically applied when the unit is taking a Ld test, and that test is taken against the UNIT's Ld value. The UNIT's Ld value is normally determined by finding the highest Ld value of a model within the unit, but in some cases units are able to replace this value with another, such as the Space Marine Rites of Battle or in this case the number of models in the Ork mob. That then IS the UNIT's Ld value for the test which then by the description of Morale check modifiers on pg 43 of the rulebook reduces the UNIT's Ld value for the test.

Contrast this with the old Witch Hunter's 'Book of St. Lucius', which specified that you always use the 'unmodified' Ld of the bearer.

Thats always been my interpretation as well, but i do think it is somewhat unclear (based on the statistically valid sample size of 2 responses received so far!). It feels like something that should be in the FAQ, but given how long bigger issues like the deffrolla and KFF questions took to resolve, I'm not holding out much hope.

I always played it as modifiers applying to ld10, but after reading DR's response, I actually think he's right.

It's really the same as a herald of tzeench on a disk getting and his unit getting charged by 4 units with rad grenades. You wouldn't reduce his toughness to -1, default to 0 and then add 1 for T1.

Or another example, mutliple units subtracting attacks from a model with the common clause "but no less than one attacks". So let's say striking scorpions (mandi blasters, two CCW, charging for +3 attacks) charge a gretchin mob and any random scorpion ends up in base contact with three grabba sticks. You wouldn't substract 3 attacks, default to 1 and then add 3 either.

So IMO, you will fully calculate any statistic and after all modifiers are applied, you clamp the result to 0-10.

Jidmah wrote:I always played it as modifiers applying to ld10, but after reading DR's response, I actually think he's right.

It's really the same as a herald of tzeench on a disk getting and his unit getting charged by 4 units with rad grenades. You wouldn't reduce his toughness to -1, default to 0 and then add 1 for T1.

Or another example, mutliple units subtracting attacks from a model with the common clause "but no less than one attacks". So let's say striking scorpions (mandi blasters, two CCW, charging for +3 attacks) charge a gretchin mob and any random scorpion ends up in base contact with three grabba sticks. You wouldn't substract 3 attacks, default to 1 and then add 3 either.

So IMO, you will fully calculate any statistic and after all modifiers are applied, you clamp the result to 0-10.

No, GW's FAQ regarding the Wierbody's Ld makes it clear that the mob rule cannot increase Ld above 10. Its certainly an omission in the way the rule is worded in the codex, but the FAQ answer makes it pretty much crystal clear IMHO.

And your example regarding rad grenades and the Herald is flawed because modifiers are all cumulative and there is no indication that you resolve them sequentially, so therefore you'd apply and resolve them together. Meaning that if a model was T3 with a +1 T modifier and then was affected by something that reduced his T by -4, he would be: T3+1-4=T0.

Exactly my point. Where is the evidence of mob rule and modifiers being resolved sequentially or even clamping before the process finishes? The mob rule doesn't automatically set the ld value, but allows you to replace the actual value with another one, thus forcing a recalculation in the moment you choose to substitute statline for the number of orks.

Jidmah wrote:Exactly my point. Where is the evidence of mob rule and modifiers being resolved sequentially or even clamping before the process finishes? The mob rule doesn't automatically set the ld value, but allows you to replace the actual value with another one, thus forcing a recalculation in the moment you choose to substitute statline for the number of orks.

And the Ork FAQ makes it clear that the maximum value Ld can be changed to via the Mob Rule is '10'...it never gets higher than that ever because there is no such characteristic in existence.

Jidmah wrote: The mob rule doesn't automatically set the ld value, but allows you to replace the actual value with another one, thus forcing a recalculation in the moment you choose to substitute statline for the number of orks.

The end result is the same. Whether it sets the Ld to something else, or just lets you replace it with something else, the end result is the unit's Ld for that test. Modifiers are then applied to the unit's Leadership... or in this case, whatever you are using instead of the unit's Leadership.

At Squad size 11+ they are fearless.

RandomSauce19 wrote:At Squad size 11+ they are fearless.

Yes we know. However, they can still be forced to take non-morale/non-pinning Ld tests in many situations, so the question does require an answer.