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I just got tabled earlier today by a Tyranid list with 9 hive guard, 2 Tyrannofexen, 3 Tervigons, and 2 fairly large broods of Genestealers. My list was as follows:

Company Command Squad - 175
-Company Commander with Plasma Pistol
-4 Veterans with Plasma Guns
-Chimera with Hull-Mounted Heavy Flamer

Veteran Squad - 180
-Veteran Sergeant with Plasma Pistol
-3 Veterans with Plasma Guns
-6 Veterans with Las Guns
-Chimera with Hull-Mounted Heavy Flamer

Veteran Squad - 155
-Veteran Sergeant with Las Pistol
-3 Veterans with Melta Guns
-6 Veterans with Las Guns
-Chimera with Hull-Mounted Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 155
-Veteran Sergeant with Las Pistol
-3 Veterans with Melta Guns
-6 Veterans with Las Guns
-Chimera with Hull-Mounted Heavy Flamer

Platoon Command Squad - 120
-Platoon Commander with Las Pistol
-2 Guardsmen with Grenade Launchers
-Heavy Weapons Team with Missile Launcher
-Chimera with Hull-Mounted Bolter & Heavy Stubber

Infantry Squad - 135
-Sergeant with Las Pistol
-Guardsman with Grenade Launcher
-6 Guardsmen with Las Guns
-Heavy Weapons Team with Missile Launcher
-Chimera with Hull-Mounted Bolter & Heavy Stubber

Infantry Squad - 135
-Sergeant with Las Pistol
-Guardsman with Grenade Launcher
-6 Guardsmen with Las Guns
-Heavy Weapons Team with Missile Launcher
-Chimera with Hull-Mounted Bolter & Heavy Stubber

Vendetta Gunship - 130

Vendetta Gunship - 130

Vendetta Gunship - 130

Leman Russ Demolsiher - 165

Leman Russ Demolisher - 165

Hydra Flak Tank Battery - 225
-3 Hydras

I screwed myself with the deployment a little, but I simply could not deal with all the T6. 9 Hive Guard also seriously put the hurt on my Chimeras. That many BS4 shots at STR8 is really nasty against AV12. Any suggestions to make the list more efficient are greatly appreciated.

The list isn't too bad and you should definitely be putting out enough shots to put the hurt on them. Hive Guard would probably be my first targets. You've got enough heavy flamers to roast the genestealers when they show up (sure they'll probably kill something first, but oh well, it's the IG.

Park the Vendettas as far back as possible and the Hive Guard won't be able to reach them easily. Clever angling of the chimeras would be able to get you cover saves. Leave the 3 chimeras from the platoon (platoon can deploy in area terrain or behind a vehicle with the missiles have clear shots) empty and put them at a bit of an angle. Snug the other chimeras into contact with the lead chimeras (their turrets should be able to see over the hull of the front-line). Stagger the other vehicles similarly.

The Russes don't have too much to worry about. The Tyrannofex can't aim well and still need a 5+ to pen them as well so you can place them pretty far up and use them to protect the weak side armor of the chimeras.

S8 hurts but it still needs 5+ to pen AV 12 and with cover your in good shape.

If you have first turn the lead chimeras can pop smoke and you'll have a lot of 4+ cover and the bulk of your army can throw out a lot of high-strength shots.

With 9 TL-Lascannons, 6 TL-Autocannons, 3 missiles (benefiting from bring it down), two demolisher shells, and four Multilasers you should be putting some pretty decent hurt on those Hive Guard. Deploy a little bit back off the 12" mark and then they'll have to move up (and out of cover if they are in it) to get their shots off.

At full strength that firepower should on average (vs T6) do:

5.625 AP2 wounds
1.875 AP 3 wounds
6 AP4 wounds
3 AP6 wounds

Plus anything the Demolishers manage to do. If you're lucky they might actually move up far enough for you to peg them with plasma shots and GL shots too.

You should be able to put a lot of hurt on those Hive Guard. If they're out of LOS, well, you take what you can get. Gun down the Tervigons or maybe take shots at a Tyrannofex if you feel lucky.

Granted these are just averages assuming you have first turn.

Here is a tip, once you start putting wounds on a T6 beastie, don't switch targets, shoot at the damn thing until it's dead.

To be blunt, it's probably not your list that's the problem here.

Learn to spread your units out to avoid multi-assaults.
When the hordes of Gants get close, use your Chimeras as sacrificial lambs to block infantry movement.
Have your Chimeras work in pairs; tank shock hordes into flame templates with the first Chimeras, drive forward and flame with the second.
Park your Chimeras in an upside down “V” formation and have the squad disembark in the middle; that lets you rapid fire your plasmas between the gap and be safe from assaults the next turn. That should give you two turns of rapid firing against the MC’s before they get you.
Hydras and Chimeras shoot at the Hive Guard, Vendettas shoot at the Tyrannofex.

The only real changes I would make to your list would be:
Take an Astropath so you can reserve the Vendettas when not going first.
Replace the Demolishers with Manticores.
Give your Veterans/Infantry squads Autocannons.

To kinda back up Unbeliever some... I went down your list and thought it seemed good till I got to your Platoon... GLs and MLs?

Actually... why do you even have a platoon in this list... what purpose do they serve? Cheap Chimeras?
Never mind the terrible weapons you gave them... but your going mech guard. Your not packing two SWSs and the PCS kitted out with flamers riding in the Vendettas. Your not doing Orders, so having HWSs are pointless (since 'BiD!' would have tore the hell out of that Nid list, if the stealers could be kept off of the HWSs). So why not make them all Vets so they can actually hit what they are shooting at?

Drop a Hydra and those Plasma pistols and those 3 platoon Chimeras could be Vet Chimeras. Give your plasma Vet squad a AC and use that as your rear objective camper.

Deploy ment and only pushing up 4 chimeras (since I have to assume your camping the platoon chimeras) with 2 demolishers meant the Nids had a easy choice when they did shoot... the BS 3 tards in back that hit 50% of the time or the melta guns bearing down on them. I bet they didn't even touch your LRBTs till after they killed the Chimera Vets. Mech Vets work because your pushing as many Chimeras down their throat that they can't kill them all by the time they get in range. In effect, it is mech hoard.

BlkTom wrote:To kinda back up Unbeliever some... I went down your list and thought it seemed good till I got to your Platoon... GLs and MLs?

Actually... why do you even have a platoon in this list... what purpose do they serve? Cheap Chimeras?
Never mind the terrible weapons you gave them... but your going mech guard. Your not packing two SWSs and the PCS kitted out with flamers riding in the Vendettas. Your not doing Orders, so having HWSs are pointless (since 'BiD!' would have tore the hell out of that Nid list, if the stealers could be kept off of the HWSs). So why not make them all Vets so they can actually hit what they are shooting at?

Drop a Hydra and those Plasma pistols and those 3 platoon Chimeras could be Vet Chimeras. Give your plasma Vet squad a AC and use that as your rear objective camper.

Deploy ment and only pushing up 4 chimeras (since I have to assume your camping the platoon chimeras) with 2 demolishers meant the Nids had a easy choice when they did shoot... the BS 3 tards in back that hit 50% of the time or the melta guns bearing down on them. I bet they didn't even touch your LRBTs till after they killed the Chimera Vets. Mech Vets work because your pushing as many Chimeras down their throat that they can't kill them all by the time they get in range. In effect, it is mech hoard.

Honestly, the platoon was in there as a linebacker to camp objectives and dish out a tonne of shots at infantry. It was also in there because I play mostly with friends and, by and large, we don't bring out the grittiest lists out there but that may have changed after the maxed out Hive Guard/Tervigons incident. I'll drop the platoon, which should open up space for a veteran squad or 3.

You're correct in the assumption that the Demolishers were untouched until the veterans were dealt with. What's the suggestion here? To drop the Russes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

unbeliever87 wrote:To be blunt, it's probably not your list that's the problem here.

Learn to spread your units out to avoid multi-assaults.
When the hordes of Gants get close, use your Chimeras as sacrificial lambs to block infantry movement.
Have your Chimeras work in pairs; tank shock hordes into flame templates with the first Chimeras, drive forward and flame with the second.
Park your Chimeras in an upside down “V” formation and have the squad disembark in the middle; that lets you rapid fire your plasmas between the gap and be safe from assaults the next turn. That should give you two turns of rapid firing against the MC’s before they get you.
Hydras and Chimeras shoot at the Hive Guard, Vendettas shoot at the Tyrannofex.

The only real changes I would make to your list would be:
Take an Astropath so you can reserve the Vendettas when not going first.
Replace the Demolishers with Manticores.
Give your Veterans/Infantry squads Autocannons.

This is more the advice I was looking for. I've had a few games under my belt but I've never been all that experimental in terms of tactics. The V-Chimera tactic sounds awesome, I'll definitely try to pull that off the next time we play. As to the list changes, adding an Astropath to reserve the Vendettas is interesting but I thought that, since Vendettas are such huge models, they had to come onto the board at cruising speed to get their hull completely on the table, which seriously hampers their effectiveness as you're only getting 1 twin-linked las cannon the turn they come on. This makes me hesitant to reserve them, though your suggestion does have serious merit and I'll think on it.

Thank you for the advice.

I'm with Unbeliever and Blktom. Your list is pretty decent and should beat Tyranids without any problems. I agree that it's probably your tactics. I'm guessing you may do what many other players do, and that's not focus on a single monstrous creature until it's dead. If a monstrous creature has 6 or 1 one it still has the potential to do the same damage output.

You're correct in the assumption that the Demolishers were untouched until the veterans were dealt with. What's the suggestion here? To drop the Russes?

Nope... it was because you in effect split your forces and to demostrate that when you do, the opponent can pick and choose who to focus their fire on. If all of your Chimeras would have been on the attack, they would have destroyed some of your Chimeras but not get all of them before they would have got into melta range. I like the Demolishers in the list... but the draw back to them is your really only moving 6" a turn... and if you run your Chimeras 12" and get ahead of them you risk scattering into the Chimeras. So you need to just run your Chimeras 6" a turn as well... either use the Demolisher as a spearhead of a group of chimeras (to maybe give your Chimeras a cover save depending on the angle) or you use your chimeras to protect the flanks and rear of your demolisher. Picture a diamond pattern with the Demolisher on the top if you want to have the Demolisher give cover to 1-2 Chimeras (depending on shooter angle). If you want to use your Chimeras to cover your Demolisher, form a triangle with the Demolisher, with a Chimera on each side abreast of the Demolisher and one directly behind.


The thing is with your orgininal list, the Platoon wasn't dishing out a ton of shots, maybe your Chimeras were, at one target, but not the troops. And I am sure your experience now how 3 Str 4 shots, 3 Str 5 shots, and 3 str 6 shots worked out at BS 3 against T 6 critteres worked out. You would have been better off targeting the Steelers where when you did hit you would have had a much better chance of wounding. That comes down to poor target choice then a failure of the points spent. My point is this could have been Vets inside the Chimera instead of platoon troops. The troops can shoot at a different target than the vehicle, and BS 4 just plain hits more often than BS 3.

Str 6 Krak nades from the GLs? Your 50% to hit and 50% to wound T 6, and AP 4... not steller. Or were you banking on the Str 3 Frags against the hoard of little things that are T 3-4? I just want you to see how ineffective GLs are here. Same thing really with Missile Launchers with BS 3 troops... 50% to hit with the Str 8 krak, though a much better chance to wound and AP 3. The Frag is Str 4 and AP 6. Your really comparing the ML against a AC... two Str 7 shots at AP 4 for 5pts cheaper. There is a reason that the two heavy weapons of choice are LCs and ACs... LCs for AV 12+ and ACs for everything else.

Have you considered droping 2 Hydras for a Manticore? Specially since your using Demolishers and your really only moving 6" a turn. I personally do not like using a scatter artillery with Melta vets due to the fact that you want to be within 6"-12" of the enemy, so it is up to you to use it properly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something I was thinking about... you /could/ get a Platoon and mount them in your Vendettas. Give the PCS 4x Flamers and the two PISs flamers. This makes your Vendettas scoring and allows them to late game move out to grab enemy objectives. The PCS can even be used agressivily to burn out weaker cover save based troops on a objective (Scouts, Rangers, Gretchen, ect).

You can do this for 160pts or 130pts if you just keep them naked. This also means you do not need to hold back Chimeras to camp rear objectives.

Sorry. It's not the list it's how you played it. This should be in tactics and not lists ...

Tyrannofex is the only unit he has which can match you on range. Hive guard are only 24" and slow. Stealers have to get into CC. Before the HG ever got into range the hydras and vendettas should have shredded them.

Those HF on the chimeras are perfect for stealers. Even if they then assault the chimera the contents still have 3 special weapons and another chimera can come in support.