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First, yes I apologize that I am too lazy to just scan the forum for already mentioned tactics. Its easier to just monitor my own topic.

Anyways, its been about 5 matches now, and I've yet to be able to beat my friend's Tau army. Granted, this may just be to the tables we have available giving him about two turns before I'm close enough to touch his units, and this is excluding when he just sends his skimmers to clean house, or his suits.

Anyways, I'm looking for good tactics for Tyranids/Chaos against them. I've yet to actually use my Chaos against him, as I'm waiting to purchase a codex (Don't ask why I built my army, THEN remembered I don't own a codex). As for Tyranids, the best luck I've ever had was Deep Striking a Doom of Malan'Tai on a Sporepod with a Heavy Venom Canon, and a Trygon (I think, I don't have the codex on hand atm to doublecheck) right by his units, and cleaning house while my gaunts slowly closed the distance, and my Hive Tyrant just picked things off at range.

As for chaos, I've got allot of unis still on the sprue, and I've some ability to convert normal marines into Plague, Khorne, etc. So just any general tips and such for Chaos would do me well.

I admit to being a new player still, so apologies I'm asking probably a really stupid question. I've played a total of 8 games so far, and 5 of them were Tau, bringing my spread to 2-6. So the help is much needed >_>.

genestealers outflanking will reduce his movement options, or risk anything he has within 18" of board edge being completely devoured when they come in

one unit of yargarbl stealers placed in a good sized terrain can assault any castle he sets up.

then you need winged tyrants, gargoyles, devourer gaunts, hive guard, or similiar to dismount his models from transports.

but really, surround and destroy, if you are coming in on one vector you aren't doing it right.

Grundz wrote:genestealers outflanking will reduce his movement options, or risk anything he has within 18" of board edge being completely devoured when they come in

one unit of yargarbl stealers placed in a good sized terrain can assault any castle he sets up.

then you need winged tyrants, gargoyles, devourer gaunts, hive guard, or similiar to dismount his models from transports.

but really, surround and destroy, if you are coming in on one vector you aren't doing it right.

He never actually uses Transports, or atleast does he have anything in them. He favors skimmers over them, which I've been able to knock aside with ease with my Doom of Malan'Tai, or a Heavy Venom Canon as I generally equipt my sporepod with it, and snipe his vehicles from the back.

The Genestealer tactic I'm going to try to use more often. I've been neglecting them as of late, as I've been trying to use more big points baddies to get in close. *Feels the stupid*

Gargoyls... I has none, so I'll have to remedy that, as will I have to the Hive guard. The Gaunts, Tyrants, and Ymgarl Stealers I do have though.

I've also got Lictors, a Carnifex, and a Trygon, if they are useful at all against Tau.

okay, so infantry castle, thats not too bad.

use stand ins for gargoyles, many people convert them from hormigaunts or gaunts. try them out The problem I had was they are expensive $$wise and i wanted like 60 at least.

they aren't for everyone, but IMHO they are the best unit in the whole codex, at worst they are cheap and buy you 1 turn of cover saves for your whole army as well as absorbing a ton of fire if you get them in cover, at best they are wiping out weak units and holding up his entire army in cc until your big guns arrive.

Really you should only have to weather 1 round of shooting, turn 2 your gargoyles are assaulting, genestealers usually arrive, yargarbls/trygons/whatever jump out from everywhere and all in a sudden he has more threats than he can deal with in 1 shooting phase before everything is in CC and dying.

Just having yargarbl's in your list should make him leery of any cover, setting stealers to outflank and he has no where to hide, you can't let him dictate the game, you don't just deploy and run at him and hope he rolls poorly, you need to throw a wrench in his plans of castling up and shooting all game.

skimmer walls can be an issue, but i dont know what points you are playing at either.

so again
-2 units of 8-10 or so genestealers should be enough to keep him away from the board edges, if he doesn't, you eat whatever you can assault from the board edge.
-maybe some gargoyles to penetrate and get more models into cc quickly, gargoyles have FEED so synapse isn't as big of a deal as usual, with adrenals they can glance his vehicles to death if they have to.
-yargarbls to again get more things in cc faster and force him to obey how you want him to play or risk getting his whole troops core multi assaulted and swept off the board
-if he doesn't field many railguns, raveners may be a decent buy, they have a max 24" assault range so if you can keep them alive past the first turn they should be gobbling up units

With that you should have him coralled near the middle of the board in a neat little castle, barbed stranglers aren't a bad idea to take advantage of his newly clumped formations and pin them, neither is doom of malentai, a trygon/mawloc (to a lesser extent), hive guard (to get those vehicles and ignore cover)

now doing all this at the same time will likely give you a mediocre force that is crap, you need to decide what you want to do, bugs are hard to play because you really need to dictate the game with units like stealers, you have nothing that can just stomp across the map and punch people in the face and there aren't many cookie cutter lists.

If you want to be a real pain in the butt run as many genestealers as you can, infiltrate them all as close as you can (18" if he can see them 12" if he can't) and 1st/2nd turn assault him until all you see are claws and dead tau.
Try not to be a dick like this though, because his natural response is going to be to mech up, and mech is much harder to deal with for newer players than infantry

This sounds do-able. I've a friend very willing to let me borrow his Genestealers, and I've more than enough Gaunts to proxy as Gargoyles for a nice, formidable force.

For HQ, I'll probably do a Winged tyrant falling in with the Gargoyles. From my experiences with the Tyrant so far, its one of the units he HATES seeing get close.

I was consier proxying my Fex as a Tervigon, and when the Trygon deep strikes, I use the tunnel option to move my Tervigon near his guys, while spawning in more boys to keep him on his toes, but this idea you gave me has made it allot easier for me to work with, added in that he has the mentality to aim at my Malan'Tai first (I wiped out half his army with the Malan'tai's debut), so the skies of Gargoyles will serve me well.

Thank you allot.

Takeshishin wrote:
For HQ, I'll probably do a Winged tyrant falling in with the Gargoyles. From my experiences with the Tyrant so far, its one of the units he HATES seeing get close.

really though, if you guys are doing cc right, they are tau, you should be winning every combat and sweeping virtually every unit you hit.

lemme know how it turns out

I wouldn't know... We RARELY get into CC, as I've... Well, just NOW got Genestealers :I. My army was built using the older codex, uilizing Without Number, and a mass army of gaunts. This was also when Biomorphs were all over the codex, and I had allot more variety with each single unit. Granted... It STILL did not work...

Takeshishin wrote:when the Trygon deep strikes, I use the tunnel option to move my Tervigon near his guys, while spawning in more boys to keep him on his toes

FYI you can't tunnel a Tervigon - it's only Infantry that can use the tunnel, and the Tervi is a Monstrous Creature. Raveners and anything with wings are likewise unable to use the tunnel.

rigeld2 wrote:

Takeshishin wrote:when the Trygon deep strikes, I use the tunnel option to move my Tervigon near his guys, while spawning in more boys to keep him on his toes

FYI you can't tunnel a Tervigon - it's only Infantry that can use the tunnel, and the Tervi is a Monstrous Creature. Raveners and anything with wings are likewise unable to use the tunnel.

Ah! thank you for that. Sorry. Still learning the new codex >_>. Ah well, if I do use the Trygon, I'll just worry about the tunnel if I happen to still have an infantry in Reserve.

Also a spore pod can't take a heavy venom cannon, only the crappy standard version.

Arson Fire wrote:Also a spore pod can't take a heavy venom cannon, only the crappy standard version.

Thought it was heavy, but even then, I'm sure the standard one would be useful if I get a sneak attack at the back of his vehicles. One way or the other, he's either going to have his rear open to my Heavy Tyrant, or my Doom, or the spore pod, so its nice to keep options open for taking down the vehicle.

This is what I get for posting ideas without reading my codex first. Makes me sound more and more like a noobie xD

I have some pretty strong opinions regarding Tyranids.
Here's why I think you should win against a Tau player any day of the week:
Put too much on the board for him to shoot off.
Given the fact that he doesn't run many transports (this is correct), you need to be concerned about two things primarily: staying just out of rapid fire range and ensuring the assault.

I suggest you run some of the more effective lists in the codex. Someone mentioned genestealers. These are amazing and will tear through unit after unit if they outflank. Keep in mind that you can also infiltrate genestealers into cover. The biggest tactic i can suggest is that you give yourself enough genestealers to allow for a multi-assault. Try to assault more than one unit of tau if possible because, chances are, you'll annihilate a squad of fire warriors on each charge. Keeping yourself stuck in melee will actually keep your stealers alive.

Catalyst is a fantastic psychic ability. Against most tau, I organize my list so that I have termigants providing cover for hive guard providing cover for tervigons providing cover for trygons. Simply march your army straight toward his. Catalyst the unit you believe he is most likely to pick on.

Convert your carnifex into a tervigon. Then field two. They are worth it. Also, run Trygons in pairs, as well. That's 24 wounds of Toughness 6 monstrous creature walking up the field, all of which has a 4+ cover save. Find that he's trying to saturate your tervigons or trygons with lots of low-strength firepower? No problem, catalyst whatever he's prioritizing next turn.

Your hive guard are more than competent at popping skimmers and your genestealers can certainly finish off what's left. If he ignores your Trygons by the time they get up field there's literally nothing in his army that can go toe-to-toe with it. If he's ignored your tervigons and her host of termagants (continuously spawning, hopefully, dice gods willing) he'll see a massive horde of critters charging with 4+ poison wounds to re-roll.

At 1500 points, i'd run a list that looks something like this:
HQ
Tervigon: AG, TS, Catalyst- 195
Tervigon: AG, TS, Catalyst- 195

Elite:
Hive Guard x2- 100
Hive Guard x2- 100

Troops:
15x Termagant- 75
15x Termagant- 75
10x Genestealers: Toxin Sacs- 170
10x Genestealers: Toxin Sacs- 170

Heavy Support:
Trygon: Toxin Sacs- 210
Trygon: Toxin Sacs- 210

The Termigant's are going to be initiative 5, strength 4 on the charge if they remain close to the tervigon. This means they'll re-roll on 4+ poison weapons. The toxin sacs will allow stealers and trygons to re-roll to wound the vast majority of the time. I find that adrenal glands are pretty redundant on both of these guys since they rarely face anything that's T5 and re-rolling to wound on a 4+ is statistically better than rolling to wound at S5 vs T4 (and only on the charge, at that).

A list like this should have little problem against any tau player.

I think your biggest problem might be the following:
1. Doom of Malan'tai- On paper, he's awesome. But he's T4. All it takes is missing ONE 3+ save on a S8 weapon (tau have a fair number of strength 8 options, and he's going to be targeting your doom with everything he has following your debut with him) is all it takes to annihilate 130 points of your army.

2. Shooting- Tyranids have one unit in the codex worth shooting with (aside from shooting if you are within assault range) and that's the Hive Guard. You are going to be out-shot by the Tau.

3. Holding anything except Genestealers (or the Doom, if you insist on taking him) in reserve- Keep your gak on the table. Deep striking a Trygon is cool and sounds cool, especially with the tunneling. However, holding your stuff in reserve causes a few problems. First, it leaves more of your army vulnerable to focused fire. Seeing 2 Trygons and 2 Tervigons makes target priority difficult for many players. Seeing 2 Tervigons makes the choice easy. Second, let's say your Trygon gets in Turn 2. There's little chance the rest of your army is within striking range. This means your Trygon is going to suffer the entire weight of his shooting and likely perish. Stealers have the advantage of being able to assault immediately when outflanking so long as something of his is within the 12'' threat range of the board side. If not, you should be able to get those suckers in cover. If he's smart, he'll target your stealers. But that's okay, because you have a couple trygons, horde of tervigon-supported termagants, and hive guard marching right up toward him that he now has to ignore to shoot your genestealers.

4. Use more cover. It sounds like you don't use nearly enough cover. This only helps the tau player. Tyranids are an assault army. They need cover to hide behind before they burst up into the enemy to demolish them. Use the rule of thumb whereby you cover about a quarter of the board in pieces of cover and then spread it out. This should be more than enough to grant a few saves here and there. If you lack cover, give your important, large bugs cover saves behind less important small bugs. The hive guard is big enough to cover a carnifex-converted tervigon which is big enough to provide a cover save to a trygon.

Good luck.
So far my tyranids hiss in glee every time they see a tau. I've been completely undefeated by them.

I like what I read. One issue though... The General Rulebook we use here locally (Pointing out I am the ONLY competitive player here) is apparently before Multi-assault. Or I can no find it one. I believe we are using the previous edition Warhammer 40k rules locally, which has always been a severe BANE in allot of what I argue with him.

As for the list itself:

HQ
Tervigon: AG, TS, Catalyst- 195
Tervigon: AG, TS, Catalyst- 195

Elite:
Hive Guard x2- 100
Hive Guard x2- 100

Troops:
15x Termagant- 75
15x Termagant- 75
10x Genestealers: Toxin Sacs- 170
10x Genestealers: Toxin Sacs- 170

Heavy Support:
Trygon: Toxin Sacs- 210
Trygon: Toxin Sacs- 210


The units in red are units I have nothing of, and nothing I think would be a suitible proxy. The ones in blue I have one model for, and no suitible proxies. Though I WILL be making a close copy of this list. I just may have to fill in the spaces with Ymgarl Stealers, Lictors, or the Doom. I understand the Doom is easy to pick off, but I have always had a deal of luck eating most of his units, or causing him to spread them out enough to where they will be within range for my Stealers coming in and omnoming away in an attempt to avoid my Doom's Mind nomming thing.

Buuutttt... We never play over 1250 here, since he only has 1250 worth of Tau, at a stretch, so I don't see it as that hard to fill in the slots. Since our next game will be 750, and I can easilly make it work for me with the new ideas I have in my head.

Takeshishin wrote:I like what I read. One issue though... The General Rulebook we use here locally (Pointing out I am the ONLY competitive player here) is apparently before Multi-assault. Or I can no find it one. I believe we are using the previous edition Warhammer 40k rules locally, which has always been a severe BANE in allot of what I argue with him.

I have little to no experience with the old edition rules... You and your friend should absolutely be using the newest rule-set...

Yes, armies like Tau and Nids are comparatively under powered compared to previous iterations and contrasted against the newer Matt Ward ultracodexes. But it doesn't seem fair for you to have to use a relatively weaker tyranid codex (compared to the old codex, as I've been told) without being able to use the few advantages that the new rules can give you (namely multi-assault, and LOS blocking with your troops).

Here's how multi assaults work. Your 10 genestealers outflank on the corner he's turtled a couple fire warrior squads. Running them gets them within 6'' of BOTH squads. So you charge both (making sure to maintain 2'' coherency between your genestealers). You may then divide your genestealers' attacks between the groups. My suggestion is to do a 60:40 ratio. Usually this is enough to annihilate one full squad of fire warriors, allowing all of your genestealers to consolidate into the remaining squad. The 2nd squad dies in the opponent's assault phase, and you can re-group toward the next target. Using this tactic, it's possible to destroy multiple vehicles, squads, and remain essentially immune to the bane of all genestealers: the shooting phase.

Takeshishin wrote:
Buuutttt... We never play over 1250 here, since he only has 1250 worth of Tau, at a stretch, so I don't see it as that hard to fill in the slots. Since our next game will be 750, and I can easilly make it work for me with the new ideas I have in my head.

Ah, well a 750 list I'd run would look something like this
HQ
Tervigon: AG, TS, Catalyst- 195

Elite
Doom of Malan'tai: Spore- 130

Troops
17xTermagant -85
10xGenestealers-140

Heavy Support
Trygon-200

This list would include the Doom since you really like him
As you scale up (given your model situation) I'd fill it in. Genestealers are going to be your strongest option.

What does his list look like?

I have and use the current Nid Codex, I meant the rulebook for 40k itself . They don't see investing into the codex as necessary since only I do tournaments, though I do plan on purchasing the codex as my best friend is getting a Space Wolf army.

Though I do understand how Multiassault works, its just when I try to convince him its legal... Well... I get the "Find it in THIS codex" argument. *shrug* I can't argue with him, since he has superiority at the local shop, but when I do get the updated Rulebook, I'll be sure he eats a nice helping of "I told you so."

Takeshishin wrote:I have and use the current Nid Codex, I meant the rulebook for 40k itself .

I gathered that. I'm just saying that the fact you guys are using old core rules with a new nid codex hurts you worse than if you were using the old nid codex (keep in mind, the tau codex is still 4th edition).

Takeshishin wrote:
They don't see investing into the codex as necessary since only I do tournaments, though I do plan on purchasing the codex as my best friend is getting a Space Wolf army.

Though I do understand how Multiassault works, its just when I try to convince him its legal... Well... I get the "Find it in THIS codex" argument. *shrug* I can't argue with him, since he has superiority at the local shop, but when I do get the updated Rulebook, I'll be sure he eats a nice helping of "I told you so."

They don't think using the current rules of the game they play as necessary?

The problem with this argument is that all of the codexes coming out now are arriving with the new rules in mind. Your apparently "superior" friend is quite mistaken. I encourage you to buy the new rulebook or borrow it and give him that dose of "i told you so" that he really deserves.

Edited in:

Takeshishin wrote:
He generally has a mix of the standard Tau gunners, a Suit HQ with two other suits, and tries to fit in atleast one skimmer. I don't know names off hand, I wanna say Devilfish, but I know its armors are 14 Front, 12 sides, 10 back.

He also, and I've honestly never thought to check, but claims his suits can move before AND after shooting, letting him bob into and ou of cover for shots. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I also haven't had the mind to check since I never got close enough for it to matter >_>

I should also point out we use the table.. Well, long ways. We do a standard Kill all of the enemy units games, rather then the 5-7 turns games. So rather then using the gaming table to where it should take just two turns to get to range, it takes... Sometimes 5. Its a 4ft (I think) long table. I will be heavilly pushing to use it the more common, and somewhat Fairer, wideways though. Even with the Long ways, I've always lasted long enough to pick off a few units. *Feels like a very, very sad litle noobie*

Dude.... you are getting screwed:
1. He's making you use old, inferior rules.
2. He's making you play on a table that gives his long-range shooting army an advantage.
3. He's claiming there's anything in his army with AV14 (there isn't)
4. He's making you play at point values that are far below what the game was designed to be played at. Yeah, i get that money can be an issue, but the Tyranid sweet spot is 1500-2000 points.

The crysis suits are jetpacks which can, according to the rules, move in both the mvment and assault phase 6''. Make sure he's not moving them like jump infantry.

The "kill your enemy" style mission won't be a problem. If you insist on a fairer game, he'll be begging to switch back to objective based games (which force you to keep some of your units out of the fight to hold objectives instead of eating his guys). You'll win every game soundly.

You should always be deploying your army using the long edge of a 6'x4' table. This means the maximum distance your army should be from his army is a little less than 4 feet. that's 48 inches. Moving 6 inches and running ~3 inches every turn should get you to his board edge (EDGE) around turn 5. But you get to deploy your army 12'' from your own edge, which means even if he is hiding on his edge you should be able to assault him on turn 3.

I hate to say it, but this guy is cheating you. You aren't losing because you are new or because you are playing a stronger army. He's deliberately exploiting and even making up rules (this deployment style is absurd) to favor his army.

I'll be attempting such, as soon as I get a job to begin purchasing again, and as soon as I see a cheap find on Ebay, or at the local flea market.

Moved down from an above edit:

He generally has a mix of the standard Tau gunners, a Suit HQ with two other suits, and tries to fit in atleast one skimmer. I don't know names off hand, I wanna say Devilfish, but I know its armors are 14 Front, 12 sides, 10 back.

He also, and I've honestly never thought to check, but claims his suits can move before AND after shooting, letting him bob into and ou of cover for shots. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I also haven't had the mind to check since I never got close enough for it to matter >_>

I should also point out we use the table.. Well, long ways. We do a standard Kill all of the enemy units games, rather then the 5-7 turns games. So rather then using the gaming table to where it should take just two turns to get to range, it takes... Sometimes 5. Its a 4ft (I think) long table. I will be heavilly pushing to use it the more common, and somewhat Fairer, wideways though. Even with the Long ways, I've always lasted long enough to pick off a few units. *Feels like a very, very sad litle noobie*

Sorry, all of this editing has confused my posting style.
You can find my reply...above yours.

Actually, none of us knew proper deployment, we just always did this style. The deployment part has just been our collective groups failure xD

The AV was a rough rememberance on my point, I actually did see it in the book, but it was 13/14 one >_>

As for points, it's not forcing me to, it's the fact that I cant afford allot, and rather then think: "Invest another 500 points into my nids" I began a chaos army. Added in, allot of what I bought was a codex ago, and I had a massive gargoyle and hormagaunt army :|


The rest I can't argue with, as he does have some superiority over me in the local shop, and is my ride. I'm going to bring up the deployment issue, and make it clear that it will give his tau a deal of an advantage, and I'd honestly prefer fighting his daemon (which he is also using an older codex for as well -_- fml)

takeshin: for bugs a great place to look is allofcraigs.com

you will occasionally find someone with a bunch of old bugs, ripe for chopping up and converting, for next to nothing. People will trade good stuff for older models if you find the right people. Sell what you dont want on forums or ebay and then repeat the process.

I started with a bunch of 2nd edition bugs, couple old carnifexes and hive tyrants about a year later I had invested maybe $200 in my army and had this:


It takes alot of patience and luck but it is very doable to slowly grow your army without actually spending any

Of course you have to deal with constant stripping and repainting, or have a 3 ring circus army like I did

A couple of things for you to consider:

1. Double check the AV on that high AV tank you are talking about. I'm pretty certain that the highest front AV Tau have is 13 (on their Hammerhead). I think their Devilfish only have AV 12 front armor. Insist on reading his Army Codex to verify.
2. Tau battlesuits have Jetpacks, which let them make a move in the assault phase, so he can pop out of cover in the movement phase, shoot in the shooting phase, and pop back into cover in the assault phase.
3. If you are being forced to use the older 4th Edition main rule set, then you need to prepare yourself for winning all of your matches. Take hordes of CC troops (preferably infiltrating Genestealers), get into close combat, and laugh as you slaughter that unit and consolidate into the next Tau unit in the infantry castle. Read the rules for Consolidation on page 44 of the 4th edition rulebook. Pay attention to the part where you can use your consolidation move to contact enemy units and lock them in combat. 4th edition was brilliant for CC armies.
4. Try to convince your group to play properly, rather than having to slog at each other the wrong way across the board. Failing that, get lots of infiltrating genestealers (so the farthest you have to go is 12"-18") and slaughter your opponents mercilessly. They will beg you to use the current rules before long.

The consolidation thing just forced me to emit an evil laughter. Since he always bunkers up against the side of the board anyways, this strategy will mean the death of him. Muahaha!

Been awhile since posted, and I don't mean to revive dead threads, but one wanted me to post an update on how the tips I learned went, so here y'go:

He ended up asking to make it a 800pt game, and from experience when he asks to alter the points we agreed on it means he wants to bring in Kroot (Don't ask, Its just how it has always been. doing a 1000 game? Suddenly, he wants to do 1250, and there were kroot. Same as out 500 he asked to make 750, etc and etc.) On a whim, I invested my spare points into some ripper swarms.

I was right, as when we did fight, he had Kroot held back, and when they came on it just happened to be near the hole I DS'd my Trygon in with. My rippers came into play the next turn, and I placed them within proper range of the tunnel, but also blocking the path of his Kroot. His options: Go around the Rippers and get Assaulted next turn, or assault my rippers, and get locked down long enough for me to clear out his other guys, then walk over and give his kroot a love tap with my Doom.

Overall, I won loosing all but my Doom, Trygon, and half of each the Genestealers, and Gaunts.

Thank you all for the help, and hopefully the latest turn of events, and me using the outdated rules to my advantage rather than his will get him to invest in an updated ruleset. If not, oh well I just got a job, and I will buy it personally.