Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey all,

Recently started eldar and I love the swooping hawk models and also jetbikes so I'm trying to combine them and a few other super manouverable units to make a hard hitting force, though i do have a feeling it will be also super fragile unless played correct. I'm Aiming for 1500pts

So I have some criteria I want to fulfil:

Baharroth is a must - swooping hawk phoenix lord = mega fluff and besides he's not too bad
2 x swooping hawk units - I'm thinking two units of 8, thats a lot of mobile anti-troop and then there's the beloved hay-wires....
2 x 6 man jetbikes, big enough to survive and will be equipped with two shuriken cannons each for some more dakka

Other than that I'm not too sure. Maybe a vyper squadron with lances for AT and some fire dragons in a lance serpent? Was thinking of the Avatar simply as a huge distraction, he can take some firepower and still make it to within reaching distance, hes more for harassment really.

Also would rangers be out of place in this list even for holding my own objectives? as pathfinders they could endure a lot of firepower and the rest of me army may be able to stop the enemy coming in CC with them with all the dakka I have to compliment.

And one last thing, I know these are a favourite, and while I may get skinned for saying such a thing, I dont want warwalkers, that's right, none................

So what does dakka think??

Um......Ok, tricky one. For a start let's look at Baharroth, firstly, Pheonix Lords aren't particularly good considering that they are expensive in terms of points and really suffer from the lack of an invulnerable save. Ok, now lets look at Baharroth. In my opinion, he is the least effective Pheonix Lord in terms of gameplay. But, you want him in your list, and that's fine as he won't lose you a game by yourself.

Jetbikes are good for last minute shenanigans, so definately keep those.

Swooping Hawks are poor. They are far too over-costed for what they do. Mobile anti-troop is meh, as they are wielding rubbish guns, and the only really advantages are the Haywire Grenades and the Swooping Hawk Grenade pack.

Vypers are fine, and I think that Rangers would be ok as well, especially if they're Pathfinders, as you'll want to push everything else forward and they can stay back and camp on objectives with they highly improved cover saves, and then the jetbikes fly out and take some of your enemies objectives at the last minute.

I wouldn't say that War Walkers are the favourite though, I think Eldrad occupies that spot .

Hope this has given you some food for thought, and although Swooping Hawk lists aren't the most competitive by any means, they are a fun list to play.

Yea, Rampage has already hit the low points of Pheonix lords in general, as well as Swooping Hawks.

I mean... they are basically flying IG veterans for 21 points per model- without options to take special weapons. ouch.

If you want to run hawks, you need to take an Autarch. That way you can deep strike them in and out much more consistantly, and keep dropping those pie plates.

I would do one "close combat" hawk squad-

Baharroth
Autarch- wings, power weapon, mandiblasters, fusion gun
5 Swooping Hawks- Exarch, Power Weapon

That way you have a respectable number of power weapon attacks coming at high initiative from the squad- and everybody has plasma grenades, so yay. You would then use your speed to bully weaker enemy malaysia and flee from stronger ones when they come around. Remember you can sky leap out of close combat. Intercept is for multi charging your regular hawks into tanks.

Then, since you like the fluff of Hawks just take another squad of 5 and an Exarch with sky leap. You can take advantage of the Autarch's +1 to just drop s4 pie plates every turn and leave you enemies nothing to shoot at. You can give the Exarch a Sun Rifle if you want to give the squad better shooting- but realistically you won't be shooting until the end of the game when you start using your hawks to contest objectives. Intercept is in the same boat- its somewhat fringe since your hawks will generally be off the board, and they can't assault after deep strike. However its only 5 points, and can be really helpful for adding some anti armor.

Jetbikes. Awesome troop choice in this type of list- they are fast as hell, and can zip around to objectives. You will be wanting to pick up Warlocks for them though. The 53 points you pay for a jetlock with embolden and a singing spear is totally worth it for your jetbikes. Embolden helps make their leadership 8 less of an issue, and the singing spear is really nice for adding a few anti vehicle guns to the table.

As for the rest of your army-

I would suggest War Walkers and Striking Scorpions. For no other reason than outflanking. That way you can reserve your entire army and just have it come out from the woodwork. Hawks Yo Yoing, walkers and scorpions coming in from the sides, and jetbikes coming in from your board edge and turbo boosting to wherever they will be needed.

Its not the most competitive Eldar list around, but it would have a very ninja feel to it, and is one of the only ways I could conceivably see building an army actually emphasizing swooping hawks and Baharroth.

Cheers for the feedback guys

Yeh I do know that this isn't the most competitive army the world has ever seen but I really just aim to have fun with it and see where it leads though it would be nice if there was a chance of winning

Think I will go with the vypers as another FA slot, they like everything else are fast.

Fair play with Eldrad

I do really like the thought of a hawk combat squad, especially with the fact they have assault guns, the squad itself will get destroyed but they'll act as a good shield for the IC's. See how it goes

Think I'll also go with the warlock bikes too, I see your point, I'm gonna definitelty need them to stay on the board and some more AT

Pathfinders are go too but how many should I have? One squad of five, one of more than five or two of five?

Also any opinion on storm guardians being involved in this list??

All advise is appreciated

Hmm, would you consider any warp spiders in this list? If you're not set on outflanking walkers they can provide some fast moving s6 fire that is, dare I say it, a little less fragile than vipers. Although expensive, an exarch with power blades and withdraw can be a great harassment unit for lone marine squads and are great for contesting objectives late game with their extra 2d6 move. Not optimal it's true, but as an alternative to vipers.

As for storm guardians, they can be handy for crowd control as a dual flamer + warlock destructor format, but need a wave serpent to survive long enough to be effective.

That sounds like a cool idea, the vypers were only for the lances, I'll bear them in mind

Yeah I was thinking of putting then in a serpent with dual flamers and a lock, serpent will have lances for much needed AT

Now for some AT cos I'm very very short on it, I'm thinking dragons in serpent maybe, 2 lots?

Cheers as always

I'll put up a list later this evening

Vypers, in my experience, should have Scatter Laser turret/Shiruken Cannon underslung. If you are going to take a Bright Lance, take a dire avenger unit in a Wave Serpent and give the Wave Serpent a BL. Though, to be honest, you shouldn't really need a BL with your army.

To make the army concept work, I recommend 1 autarch kitted out, 1 baharroth and a full 10 man unit to go with them, you'll need the extra bodies (exarch has hawks talon and autarch fusion gun).

next take 2 5 man units with exarch and maybe hawks talon for that s5 for side armor shots. These units, along with your main one spam their pie plates as needed and when opportunity arises, DS down and stay down so you can charge a unit/tank that may be isolated.

I've had a lot of success running 6 man jetbike units with 2 cannons, they are great for adding some nice firepower in a pinch but they can die when focused on so they should stay in reserve until needed, you might want a Warlock with a spear/embolden with them.

For Heavy Support, you'll probably want 3X3 warwalkers, here you could put some brightlances/EML if you wanted but scatter lasers are best. For elites, Striking scorpionsX3 would work with BL armed wave serpents if you want, that will add a solid CC base.

So yeah:

baharroth
autarch

3X8 striking scorpions with BL wave serpent

2 6 man jetbike units

3 swooping hawk units


scale things down appropriately to fit in any points limit but the above can be comfortably done in 2kish You can also check my blog out (link in my sig) to see my tactic articles on jetbikes and vypers.

The major issue you are going to have isn't the swooping hawks or Baharroth, but rather the point cost you are trying to play. To do a rubber hawk list I wouldn't recommend it under 2k points because then you are point starved to fill out the non-fluff portion of the army.

Trust me, I run swooping hawks very often and know them in and out. They are fun, your opponent doesn't expect them, and nothing frustrates an opponent like getting bombed from space 4 times a turn with no way to retaliate lol.

That being said, way too many point go into it at 1500, but here is a list you can try to fit the rubberhawk theme.

Baharroth (Do not attach him to a unit)
Autarch w/ PW, Fusion Gun, SWH Wings (Attach to Hawk's Talon Hawks)

5 Fire Dragons in Serpent w/ Scatter Lasers

3 GJB w/ S cannon + Warlock with Spear and Embolden
5 DA in Serpent w/ Scatter Lasers
5 DA in Serpent w/ Scatter Lasers

4 Swooping Hawks + Exarch w/ Hawks Talon, Skyleap
4 Swooping Hawks + Exarch w/ Sunrifle, Skyleap
4 Swooping Hawks + Exarch w/ Sunrifle, Skyleap


With Baharrorth separate you will be bombing 4 times per turn with a +1 to reserves. The rest of you army's key role will be to knock the enemy infantry out of their tanks so that you can bomb them or focus on the MCs that the bombs won't really hurt. Last turn land and obliterate a target off an objective.

Thanks for the replies guys!

I'll keep the lances to the wave serpents then as I'm not particularly fond of warwalkers and striking scorpions might not be so bad.

Never thought about running baharroth seperate though, thats a really cool idea, if he gets into trouble I can always get him outta there

Now just to write a list when it's lunchtime, work for now

Anything else is much appreciated


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok so heres the list that I have come with taking in the various suggestions above:

HQ:
Baharroth
Autarch w/ swooping hawk wings, fusion gun and PW

Troops:
6 Jetbikers w/ 2 SC and a lock x2
5 Pathfinders

FA:
5 swooping hawks w/ exarch, skyleap, intercept and hawks talon x2

Elite:
5 fire dragons in serpent w/ lance
5 striking scorpions w/ exarch, both spec. rules (sorry dont have codex on me) and scorpions claw

So this comes to 1460/1500

This is a harder list to make than I thought

So what should I spend the remainder on and is there anything I should swap out (please bear in mind the fluff from the original post)

Many thanks

Just clarifying, the swooping hawk packs should always be 4 normal hawks and exrach. There is almost no benefit to the 5th regular hawk. Also you really won't see much mileage from Intercept, because once those hawks hit the gorund and stay there, they will get gunned down faster then you can imagine.

Golden rule of Eldar melee, never taken less then 10 in a squad. Eldar have to kill the majority of the enemy before they have a chance to swing back and a 5-6 man unit won't get that done.

You have 1 wave Serpent in the list... carrying fire dragons... with a bright lance. That thing is going to be dead so fast it'll make you head spin, so keep it's point low and swing to Scatter Laser. You would be lucky to get one shot with that BL before it is destroyed.

I'm not nearly as versed in Hawking as Blue Dagger, but I would recommend the Sunrifle on the exarchs if you elect to go for a shooting upgrade on the Hawks. Personally I'd prefer 6 s3 pinning shots than 2 s5 shots. As Stalin said, "quantity has a quality all its own".

I usually put a tl shuri cannon on my dragon wangons. Since Dragons automatically paint a big shoot me on the side of whatever they ride in, you really want to keep that serpent as cheap as possible.

Another thing you could do to save points is to drop the pathfinders (they kinda suck harder than a slutty cheerleader at the prom afterglow) and break your jetbikes into 3 squads of 3 with a cannon accompanied by a Warlock.

Saves you almost 150 points for the same number of scoring units. 3 man bike squads aren't as combat able as 6 man, but they are still great for securing objectives and light harrassment, and you do get a third spear for a little wee bit more anti tank.

The Hawks talon is 3 S5 shots making it optimal for the Autarch escort squad. The autarch should be preferably be landing behind an enemy tank for a melta rear so the S5 can do some damage too.

In all honest though, the gun upgrades on the exarchs is completely optional at all. You are paying 10-15 points for something that will probably only be firing one the whole game.

Sorry I havent made it clear that it is only 4 + exarch on the swooping hawks, i did the w/ as an upgrade, im a bit of a muppet when it comes to clarity

yeh I can see that happening so I take away the BL's add SC's and I dont mind reducing the bike squads to 3 + lock split into 3, if I have that then I can drop the path finders and what do you reckon to me adding another dragon squad in SC serpent to make it up to 1500?

Yeh I was thinking the same Blue Dagger, If I've got a chance at rear armouring something the HT is gonna be handy at times, not many like.......

Oh and I'll throw intercept away, maybe enough points to squeeze in another bike now too

I'll write another list tonight when I'm home

Thanks Again


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gotta love that HT comes up as Hive Tyrant, if I can fire one of them at rear armour rather than 3 S5 shots then I'm game

Ok so here's the list then:

HQ:
Baharroth
Autarch w/ swooping hawk wings, PW and FG

Troops:
2x 4 Jetbikes w/ 1 SC + lock w/ SS
3 Jetbikes w/ 1 SC + lock w/ SS

Elites:
2x 5 Dragons in Serpent w/ SC
4 Scorpions + exarch w/ biting blade and all exarch powers

FA:
2x 4 swooping hawks + exarch w/ hawks talon and skyleap

So there you have it, as good as its gonna get i think personally. Put the bikes in for extra survivability and I only had 50pts left.

Whaddya think?

Drop the 2 extra bikes then pickup Scatter Lasers for the Serpents, Embolden for each of the locks, Mandis for the Autarch (Mandis are optional for the Autarch only if you had exactly 50pts left.

Scatter's range and extra shot will help more then you can imagine.

Embolden is a MUST for the min GJB config.


The biggest thing to remember with this list though is it will not be forgiving in the slightest.

Right I'll put all of them into my latest list and start playing with it

Pretty sure it was 50pts so I think I can have mandi's too

I know this list is not going to be nice when the going gets tough but practice makes perfect eh? and besides I think I'm gonna go for the fun factor and casual games with this list however if I do get good with it theres no reason I wouldnt have a laugh at a tournament with it

Many thanks to all who've contributed and especially bluedagger, you've helped a young fool out with a liking for nice models rather than efficiency

Final list will be up later when I've got the codex at hand

No worries, just be aware that this list won't really be a "fun" lsit for your opponent's to play against. Rubberhawk tactics typically will frustrate your opponent because they can't hide from the attack and get blasted turn after turn. I've even had people tell me it is broken on several occasions mainly because they have no clue how terrible hawks really are.

BlueDagger makes me want to bust out my Swooping Hawks to give this a try..

** and WOOT! 1000th post! **

DOOOOOOOOOOOO IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT!!!! you know you want to

and gratz my good sir

Hehe if you want to see a frustrated opponent do:

Autarch w/ PW, FG, SHW
Baharroth (Do not attach)

5 FD in Serpent w/ Scatters

5 DA in Serpent w/ Scatters
5 DA in Serpent w/ EML
5 DA (in Falcon)
3 GJB w/ S Cannon + Warlock w/ Spear, Embolden
3 GJB w/ S Cannon + Warlock w/ Spear, Embolden

4 Swooping Hawks + Exarch w/ Skyleap
4 Swooping Hawks + Exarch w/ Skyleap
4 Swooping Hawks + Exarch w/ Skyleap, Hawk's Talon

Nightspinner
Nightspinner
Falcon w/ EML, Holos, Stones

May i enquire as to what night spinners do exactly? I've never been able to see a true advanage to having them compared with the fire prism. Sorry I'm relatively new to eldar, but I'm sure you've guessed with my primary choice of aspect warrior.........

I've ranted on this one a few hundred times so I'll keep it brief.

- It's Twin Link so there is no dependence on a farseer. Linking Prisms is a serious point sink because now you are firing a 300 point tank.

- It's Str6 so it's on par with prism's large blast... however it's rending so it can damage AV10-12 sided vehicles even if the hole isn't over the vehicles haul. (AKA it makes a mess of parkinglots)

- Yes, it's AP - but unless your enemy isn't thinking straight a mob will typically have cover from the direction of a Prism. Since the nightspinner is barrage cover is taken from the hole, so unless they are in area terrain you usually negate cover. Now add to that that the NS is rending and you'll typically find that your opponent is commonly getting LESS saves from a nightspinner. Oh and a pinning check to add insult to injury.

- It's TL 72" and doesn't require LoS... moving along

- It will slow all mobs and kill additional models of any unit it hits... it doesn't even have to wound. You tag 2 10 man packs of FNP Marines and even if you fail to kill any of them, if they move you statistically kill 3 models... hell you could get lucky and kill enough models to force a moral check in HIS movement phase (I've done it, and they have failed).

- The only real area the FP outshines to NS is it's ability to go Str 10 AP 1 or Str 6 AP 3, but that is a 300pt shot in which you lose a shot that turn. Also you miss out on Eldrad + 2 FP double blast TL Lascannons, but in all honesty, that is what the Fire Dragons are there for.


Ok... wasn't really the brief version, but meh lol.

Plus, for those of us who only bought one fire prism/night spinner kit- you can actually play 1 NS on its own without losing the major bonus/reason of taking one.

I find especially in smaller point games where there is less prevelance of armour.

Gift Card from a won Tournament = Night Spinner #1

'Ard Boyz First place prelims = Night Spinner #2

Just broke down and purchased the turret and Spinner gun = $28 Night Spinner #3


I'll have t wait for the turret to get in before I start play testing 3 Nightspinners.

Barg.

I really need to get night spinners up and running. I've been running a pair of prisms for ever, and have always wanted to try out spinners but have been unwilling to part with cash- since lawschool time commitments have been keeping me from participating in any tournaments lol. I think I'll proxy em next time I play and maybe ultimately spring for a pair of turrets and magnetize my chasis.

wow! They are a lot better than I was expecting!! I i will invest in one when I go for 2k

By the by I will be starting a blog on how im painting these fellas and the like if anyone is interested, not great at playing but im ok at painting...........sometimes