Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I got roped last-second into an 1850 tournament this weekend and am now scrambling to get models painted up in time. Since I've never played at 1850 before (usually 1500, 1750, or 2000), looking for some input. I have a baseline I'm going off of, but still have some points to spend and wondering where the heck to spend them.

HQ
CCS - x4 Melta, Chimera (ML/HF) - 145

Elite
x5 Stormtroopers - x2 Melta, Chimera (ML/HF) - 160
x5 Stormtroopers - x2 Melta, Chimera (ML/HF) - 160

Troops
Veteran Squad - x3 Melta, Chimers (ML/HF) - 155
Veteran Squad - x3 Melta, Chimers (ML/HF) - 155
Veteran Squad - x3 Plasma, Chimers (ML/HF) - 170
Veteran Squad - x3 Flamer - 85
Veteran Squad - x3 Flamer - 85

Fast Attack
Vendetta - xxx
Vendetta - xxx
x3 Scout Sentinels - x3 Autocannons - 120

Heavy Support
Demolisher - Hull Heavy Flamer - xxx
Demolisher - Hull Heavy Flamer - xxx

Points: 1825


Was thinking of dropping one autocannon to a multilaser and picking up an advisor, but not sure what to do, really. If I can't make up my mind, though, I'll just pick up door-guns (not optimal, I know) and meltabombs on the CCS for shiggles.

I don't know if you can do this or not but I would try and give the vets with flamers melta or plasma. Your wasting their good BS with template weapons. Autocannons are fine on the sentinels. You have enough ML from all of the chimeras.

Drop the flamers in your vet squads. Chimera will give you a hf for free. Give them plasma guns. Done. Still, I don't feel demolishers fit the list at all. All you have for long range is the walkers and vendettas. Should still do fairly well if played properly and you can get those tanks into range before they go boom. Or maybe not.

IMO, idk why people dont like the demolisher just because its range. yes its 24 inch, but when i see it,i see a tank that can deal with anything and i have not player on a 6x6 table and it works great with the moving chimeras. thats my peace i like the list. Id put 2 melta guns in each vendetta vet squad so they can deal with tanks and maby gang up and clear a objective with suport

lordoooge wrote:IMO, idk why people dont like the demolisher just because its range. yes its 24 inch, but when i see it,i see a tank that can deal with anything and i have not player on a 6x6 table and it works great with the moving chimeras. thats my peace i like the list. Id put 2 melta guns in each vendetta vet squad so they can deal with tanks and maby gang up and clear a objective with suport

This.

My demolishers always work great. I'd personally drop one of the ST squads to get another one. I think three demolishers would be a significantly greater threat than two. And as other have said, I'd toss the flamers on the vets for melta or plasma...BS4 is just too good to waste on a template.

List looks fine though. I love sentinels because the models are so damn good looking.

I will point out that Melta vets are 5pts cheaper, get an extra melta gun, and are scoring vs your STs in Chimeras (155pts vs 160pts).

I have to agree with the thoughts on the Flamer vets, but I understand the role you have in mind with them. Try this on for size...

Drop the Flamer vets (+170pts) plus the 25 remaining points (195pts) and two Sentinals (+80pts equals 275pts).

PCS - 50pts
4x Flamers

PIS - 105pts (blob)
Commissar, AC, Melta gun

PIS - 70pts (blob)
AC, Melta gun

SWS - 50pts
3x Flamers

Means you have a defensive blob to camp the home objective, gives you two cheap flamer units to throw in the Vendettas, and you don't lose any fire power. Though if you drop the last Sentinal you can get 3 power weapons and two melta bombs for the blob. You do lose a AC, but I feel the blob makes up for it in survivability. It also means your plasma vets can actually move up with the rest of your Chimeras.

BlkTom wrote:I will point out that Melta vets are 5pts cheaper, get an extra melta gun, and are scoring vs your STs in Chimeras (155pts vs 160pts).

Here again the above is comparing stormies to vets. Why? Stormies are NOT vets. Vets also cannot scout move OR infiltrate OR deepstrike OR outflank OR pick any one of these each and every game. There is just no comparison. They fill totally different roles in a list. If you have tried to use them as vets it is no wonder that you do not like them.

Barksdale wrote:

BlkTom wrote:I will point out that Melta vets are 5pts cheaper, get an extra melta gun, and are scoring vs your STs in Chimeras (155pts vs 160pts).

Here again the above is comparing stormies to vets. Why? Stormies are NOT vets. Vets also cannot scout move OR infiltrate OR deepstrike OR outflank OR pick any one of these each and every game. There is just no comparison. They fill totally different roles in a list. If you have tried to use them as vets it is no wonder that you do not like them.

Your right, STs are not Vets. But they are STs in Chimeras. This elliminates the Airboure Assault option as the Chimeras can't DS. Only thing Scout allows is to Outflank or do a 6" scout move, then all other benifits are lost. Since he has no Astropath, outflanking them seems like a waste so 6" scout move is it. Infiltrate is probably the best option here where starting out 18" from a foe (or 12" if LoS is blocked...and now you have to hide the Chimera so it is much harder). Moving 6" means the target is 12" away, but not in range of the firing ports for the meltas.

This means those points spent on STs in Chimeras could be Vets in Chimeras for 5pts less. I don't care how in love you are Barksdale with STs, but scoring troops that bring the same or better fire power to the table are just better point for point.

To be honest, I feel the STs are better off without a Chimera to make better use of their abilities. I do not like suicide troops and anything that starts out closer to the enemy will tend to also draw more fire. I feel points like that can be better spent on something you use Turn 1 and every turn after that (till it dies).

An option is to just give the Chimeras to the Flamer Vets and use the extra 25pts to upgrade the Vet's weapons to 5 meltas. I swear I meantioned it before, but I guess I erased the comment.

BlkTom wrote:
Your right, STs are not Vets. But they are STs in Chimeras. This elliminates the Airboure Assault option as the Chimeras can't DS.

No, but you don't have to deploy the two together so this is an option.

Only thing Scout allows is to Outflank or do a 6" scout move, then all other benifits are lost.

6" if on they're own. 12" if in the Chimera.

Since he has no Astropath, outflanking them seems like a waste so 6" scout move is it.

If I outflank, most of the time I want them coming in after turn 2 so not too big an issue.

Infiltrate is probably the best option here where starting out 18" from a foe (or 12" if LoS is blocked...and now you have to hide the Chimera so it is much harder). Moving 6" means the target is 12" away, but not in range of the firing ports for the meltas.

Chimera can't come with them on infiltrating so I don't usually do this.

This means those points spent on STs in Chimeras could be Vets in Chimeras for 5pts less. I don't care how in love you are Barksdale with STs, but scoring troops that bring the same or better fire power to the table are just better point for point.

I have 5 scoring units.....if I could give grenadiers to the flamer vets, I would. (mostly a modelling issue right now). Template on BS4 models don't concern me as I have enough melta to deal with what I need for the moment. Cheap scoring units with the ability force a large number of saves is what I want. I'd consider the platoon route and load up SWS or PCS, but the tax of two line squads really doesn't interest me. Two or three autocannons won't make a difference at this point level and I keep on the moving so holding the backfield objective is only a concern to me when I get to turn 5. If I haven't already claimed/contested the enemy objective by that point, I'm probably not going to win anyway.

To be honest, I feel the STs are better off without a Chimera to make better use of their abilities.

And I feel that STs are better off with a chimera as it gives them a stupid amount of tactical flexibility.

I do not like suicide troops and anything that starts out closer to the enemy will tend to also draw more fire. I feel points like that can be better spent on something you use Turn 1 and every turn after that (till it dies).

As do I....which is why they get the chimeras. Every now and then, a suicide DS works. But with the current build I have the following options:

1) Deploy in the transport as normal
2) Deploy in the transport and scout up to 12"
3) Deploy separate from the transport
4) Deploy separate from the transport and scout up to 6"
5) Deploy the transport on the field on infiltrate the STs.
6) Deploy the transport on the fields and DS the STs
7) Hold them in reserves together.
9) Hold them in reserves separately.
10) Hold them in reserves separately and ouflank the STs up to 6"
11) Hold them in reserves and outflank up to 12".
12) Hold the transport in reserve and infiltrate the STs.

etc....


etc...

An option is to just give the Chimeras to the Flamer Vets and use the extra 25pts to upgrade the Vet's weapons to 5 meltas. I swear I meantioned it before, but I guess I erased the comment.

An option yes, and it is a good one.....but not needed to make this list effective.





Also as a result of the tourny this weekend. Used the list from the OP (lack of internet connection to really review the comments) with door gunners on the vends and meltabombs on the CCS.

Game 1 vs Draigowing - Major Victory.
Game 2 vs. SW (Long Fangs that managed almost perfect rolls) - Minor Loss (managed to get decent BP, though)
Game 3 vs Chaos Daemons (Tzeentch Heralds with DPs and Fiends) - Major Victory
Game 4 vs. Dark Eldar (venom spam) - Minor Victory
Game 5 vs Purifier Spam - Minor Victory

Best General: 3rd Place.
Sportsmanship: 2nd Place
Painting: 6th place
Overall: 2nd Place

Not a bad haul for short notice and not being able to get everything painted up to my standards. Most of my screw-ups were due to stupid mistakes that I have learned from. A good experience overall.

This is why you really need to take advice on this forum with a grain of salt. Have you even read the guard codex? Are you familiar with the 5th edition rules?

BlkTom wrote:

Barksdale wrote:

BlkTom wrote:I will point out that Melta vets are 5pts cheaper, get an extra melta gun, and are scoring vs your STs in Chimeras (155pts vs 160pts).

Here again the above is comparing stormies to vets. Why? Stormies are NOT vets. Vets also cannot scout move OR infiltrate OR deepstrike OR outflank OR pick any one of these each and every game. There is just no comparison. They fill totally different roles in a list. If you have tried to use them as vets it is no wonder that you do not like them.

BlkTom wrote:
Your right, STs are not Vets. But they are STs in Chimeras. This elliminates the Airboure Assault option as the Chimeras can't DS. Only thing Scout allows is to Outflank or do a 6" scout move, then all other benifits are lost. Since he has no Astropath, outflanking them seems like a waste so 6" scout move is it. Infiltrate is probably the best option here where starting out 18" from a foe (or 12" if LoS is blocked...and now you have to hide the Chimera so it is much harder). Moving 6" means the target is 12" away, but not in range of the firing ports for the meltas.

I am not going to go over the USR for deepstrike, scout, or infiltrate. You can easily look these up in your rulebook on pages 74-76. I suggest you read them.

BlkTom wrote:
This means those points spent on STs in Chimeras could be Vets in Chimeras for 5pts less. I don't care how in love you are Barksdale with STs, but scoring troops that bring the same or better fire power to the table are just better point for point.

BlkTom. STs are not vets. You are paying for flexibility. Say it with me. ST are not vets. Your are paying for flexibility.

BlkTom wrote:
To be honest, I feel the STs are better off without a Chimera to make better use of their abilities. I do not like suicide troops and anything that starts out closer to the enemy will tend to also draw more fire. I feel points like that can be better spent on something you use Turn 1 and every turn after that (till it dies).

An option is to just give the Chimeras to the Flamer Vets and use the extra 25pts to upgrade the Vet's weapons to 5 meltas. I swear I meantioned it before, but I guess I erased the comment.

The chimera is one of the best buys in the codex. In a mech list I don't see a reason not to take them. Anyway, my advice for you is that you familiarize yourself with the rules before you start giving out advice, yeah? It may even make you a better player.

Nungunz wrote:
Also as a result of the tourny this weekend. Used the list from the OP (lack of internet connection to really review the comments) with door gunners on the vends and meltabombs on the CCS.

Game 1 vs Draigowing - Major Victory.
Game 2 vs. SW (Long Fangs that managed almost perfect rolls) - Minor Loss (managed to get decent BP, though)
Game 3 vs Chaos Daemons (Tzeentch Heralds with DPs and Fiends) - Major Victory
Game 4 vs. Dark Eldar (venom spam) - Minor Victory
Game 5 vs Purifier Spam - Minor Victory

Best General: 3rd Place.
Sportsmanship: 2nd Place
Painting: 6th place
Overall: 2nd Place

Not a bad haul for short notice and not being able to get everything painted up to my standards. Most of my screw-ups were due to stupid mistakes that I have learned from. A good experience overall.

Great job! Any chance of some batreps?

Barksdale wrote:
Great job! Any chance of some batreps?

When I get the chance, I might write up the SW and DE ones. Those games were pretty close until I made some bad screw-ups that cost me the games. Those are the ones most worth writing about and analyzing.

Daemon and Draigowing games were just embarrassing. Their lists were subpar and the generals made some odd/poor decisions a lot of the game. I don't know a ton about those two armies, but sat down with them afterward to talk about that games and lists.

Purifier game was just stupid. Both of us sat there just whiffing our rolls all game. Ended up with both of us having a bunch of wrecked/immobilized vehicles and neither one of us wanting to cross no-mans land. He didn't have the numbers to do it and I didn't have the armor. We tied on primary objectives, but I had the secondary objective and he beat me out in KPs (tertiary objective). Was a bit of a cluster, but entertaining.

Barksdale...

Q: Does a unit with the Scout special rule pass it on to
any vehicle it is embarked in? (p76)
A: No.

BRB FAQ, pg 6

Can't DS or Scout STs in a Chimera, leaving you only the Infiltrate SR as a option.

Apparently I am more familure with the rules than you are...

BlkTom wrote:Barksdale...

Q: Does a unit with the Scout special rule pass it on to
any vehicle it is embarked in? (p76)
A: No.

BRB FAQ, pg 6

Can't DS or Scout STs in a Chimera, leaving you only the Infiltrate SR as a option.

Apparently I am more familure with the rules than you are...

I think you need to read up on the infiltrate and scouts rules regarding dedicated transports.

Yeah... was right the first time. FAQ confused me. Sorry.