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I'm thinking about putting together a BA Razor Back spam list. However, I cannot decide what to put on the razor backs. I see a lot of posts saying to put lascannon w/twin linked plasma gun, but they don't say why its the best option. So if someone could explain the benefits of one razor back option over the other, I'd very much appreciate it.

Well as Chaos I dun get razor backs but my fav is Las cannon twin plasma, but I run with twin las cannon turret with 2 las cannon sponsons for my Renagade force. It really depends on the force you are facing too. X2 assualt cannon for a foot sloggin force and all the las plas for a mech force.

BA make good use of LAs/TL plas since they are fast vehicles.

Depends. I like Tl las, as you get good AT and can move 12 inches and still fire, but TL Plas and LC is a good fire support. I would mix these two.

BA should always take las plas since the RBs are fast

How do you like to play? Also what else do you want to field?
To defend the two options not mentioned.

If you do not mind getting in 24'' then the assault cannon works the best on paper.

The heavy bolters shouldn't be totally disregarded. They are dirt cheap and antiinfantry is something BA struggles with.

tedurur wrote:BA should always take las plas since the RBs are fast

I don't think this is good advice, no offence.

Just because your RB can move 6" and fire all there weapons dosen't mean that you should always take one option. Sometimes it is better to be more mobile, which is where any other weapon comes in. The Las/Plas actually limits your mobility, because to fire everything, you can only move 6". Granted, you can move 12" and just fire the plasma, but I think that my APC's should be mounting better guns then the guys riding inside.

MFletch wrote:How do you like to play? Also what else do you want to field?
To defend the two options not mentioned.

If you do not mind getting in 24'' then the assault cannon works the best on paper.

The heavy bolters shouldn't be totally disregarded. They are dirt cheap and antiinfantry is something BA struggles with.

Here's what else I'm thinking of playing: Vindicaters in heavy, Baal Predators w/TL Assault Cannons and Heavy Flamers in fast. Each RB will have probably 5 assault marines with a power fist or melta gun. I've always run fluff heavy lists with death star units taking up a majority of the points. Now I'd like to try a list with the points spread out a bit more.

So, Baals will be sporting TL Assault Cannons, and the Vindicaters will be running around with their pie plates of death. With those two options already on the table, my dilemma becomes what to put on the Razor Backs.

Lascannon and twinlinked plasma is the only option with 2 guns. Other razorbacks become useles after weapon destryed result on damage chart.

On a side note; why are there 130 views and only 20 votes? Come on Dakka, give me some love

Laz/Plaz, move 6in and still fire both guns or move tewlve and fire either. Its nasty

Phiasco II wrote:Here's what else I'm thinking of playing: Vindicaters in heavy, Baal Predators w/TL Assault Cannons and Heavy Flamers in fast. Each RB will have probably 5 assault marines with a power fist or melta gun. I've always run fluff heavy lists with death star units taking up a majority of the points. Now I'd like to try a list with the points spread out a bit more.

So, Baals will be sporting TL Assault Cannons, and the Vindicaters will be running around with their pie plates of death. With those two options already on the table, my dilemma becomes what to put on the Razor Backs.

Do not take heavy flamers on the baal's.

Go with las/plas on the razorbacks. They can either be long range support or up close and personal.

I don't think I would take a pf on the squad.

Phiasco II wrote:

MFletch wrote:How do you like to play? Also what else do you want to field?
To defend the two options not mentioned.

If you do not mind getting in 24'' then the assault cannon works the best on paper.

The heavy bolters shouldn't be totally disregarded. They are dirt cheap and antiinfantry is something BA struggles with.

Here's what else I'm thinking of playing: Vindicaters in heavy, Baal Predators w/TL Assault Cannons and Heavy Flamers in fast. Each RB will have probably 5 assault marines with a power fist or melta gun. I've always run fluff heavy lists with death star units taking up a majority of the points. Now I'd like to try a list with the points spread out a bit more.

So, Baals will be sporting TL Assault Cannons, and the Vindicaters will be running around with their pie plates of death. With those two options already on the table, my dilemma becomes what to put on the Razor Backs.

Put TL Las, because those guys will hunt tanks. You could give them las-plas, but then one would be after infantry while another is after tanks. With the TL las, you have a weapon that compliments what the squad is already going to be doing.

Firstly the vehicle is BS4, a twin link is almost a waste especially on a single shot.
So why take a TL LC at all (Just a FYI its easier to pop AV14 with the assault cannon)

The TL AC is an option based on 4 shots alone + rending is very handy

However the Las/Plas gets the best of both worlds in it can fire 3 shots if within 12" 1 lascannon, 2TL Plas

They count as two seperate weapons system so are more durable than the rest, as they will need 2 weapon destroyeds.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Firstly the vehicle is BS4, a twin link is almost a waste especially on a single shot.
So why take a TL LC at all (Just a FYI its easier to pop AV14 with the assault cannon)

The TL AC is an option based on 4 shots alone + rending is very handy

However the Las/Plas gets the best of both worlds in it can fire 3 shots if within 12" 1 lascannon, 2TL Plas

They count as two seperate weapons system so are more durable than the rest, as they will need 2 weapon destroyeds.

Your right, your BS4, but insurance is great, for when you miss.

And the TL plasma I am sure is a great option, but I dont like the two weapons mixed, who honestly, fill different roles.

And the AC needs to rend to hurt a landraider, but that is the only situation where it is a better AT weapon. I would rather shoot 11-13 with a Lascannon then an AC.

Take the lascannons. IT can save you in the long run from having to use them in your squads for anti-tank. Or even better, don't be a spammer and use the codex to its own advantages.

I like the versatility of the lascan and plasma gun, but I feel safter goin with tl lascans.

Happygrunt wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Firstly the vehicle is BS4, a twin link is almost a waste especially on a single shot.
So why take a TL LC at all (Just a FYI its easier to pop AV14 with the assault cannon)

The TL AC is an option based on 4 shots alone + rending is very handy

However the Las/Plas gets the best of both worlds in it can fire 3 shots if within 12" 1 lascannon, 2TL Plas

They count as two seperate weapons system so are more durable than the rest, as they will need 2 weapon destroyeds.

Your right, your BS4, but insurance is great, for when you miss.

And the TL plasma I am sure is a great option, but I dont like the two weapons mixed, who honestly, fill different roles.

And the AC needs to rend to hurt a landraider, but that is the only situation where it is a better AT weapon. I would rather shoot 11-13 with a Lascannon then an AC.

Seriously, do you even bother checking the numbers before you post advice? Because if you did you would see that the AC is better against all AV (The exception could be AV12 where the AC has a slighly higher chance of destroying but a much smaller chance of stun locking).

Lascannons arent great at dealing with high AV, they are good vs low AV something that the PG can compliment. When within 24" the LasPlas will do better vs AV 12 than the TL-Las will. The LasPlas is also more durable than TL-Las and much more versitile. As a BA player there really is NO way you should ever take the TL-Las in an all commers list.

tedurur wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Firstly the vehicle is BS4, a twin link is almost a waste especially on a single shot.
So why take a TL LC at all (Just a FYI its easier to pop AV14 with the assault cannon)

The TL AC is an option based on 4 shots alone + rending is very handy

However the Las/Plas gets the best of both worlds in it can fire 3 shots if within 12" 1 lascannon, 2TL Plas

They count as two seperate weapons system so are more durable than the rest, as they will need 2 weapon destroyeds.

Your right, your BS4, but insurance is great, for when you miss.

And the TL plasma I am sure is a great option, but I dont like the two weapons mixed, who honestly, fill different roles.

And the AC needs to rend to hurt a landraider, but that is the only situation where it is a better AT weapon. I would rather shoot 11-13 with a Lascannon then an AC.

Seriously, do you even bother checking the numbers before you post advice? Because if you did you would see that the AC is better against all AV (The exception could be AV12 where the AC has a slighly higher chance of destroying but a much smaller chance of stun locking).

Lascannons arent great at dealing with high AV, they are good vs low AV something that the PG can compliment. When within 24" the LasPlas will do better vs AV 12 than the TL-Las will. The LasPlas is also more durable than TL-Las and much more versitile. As a BA player there really is NO way you should ever take the TL-Las in an all commers list.

No, I never check the numbers. Because Math-hammer goes out-the-fething-window when the game starts. I have played the game, while not as long as some, long enough to know that math-hammer dose not apply to the game. Its a great theory, but I would rather have experience tell me what to do then some pieces of paper. So if you say Las/Plas is the best thing on earth, that is all fine and good, but I would still rather take my TL-LC over it.

Math certainly does apply whether you are able to perceive it or not.

Perception =/= reality.

edit:
Keep in mind that BA razorbacks are fast. This means 2 things:
1)Having two weapons does not make you immobile
2)Range is less of an issue.

When deciding between TL las and TL assault cannon, the importance of range is the deciding factor. Since BA gain some effective range, the TL assault cannon gains some value while the TL las loses some. Therefore the TL assault cannon is the stronger choice between the two.

When deciding between Las/TL plas and TL assault cannon you are deciding between multiple weapons survivability in exchange for less mobility. Also, the target options of the Las/TL plas are more limited, although its AP2 makes it a bit better against heavy infantry or FNP infantry.

TL LAs may be a consideration for SW and C:SM, but for BA I'd have to say their fast vehicles heavily favor either Las/TL plas or TL assault cannon.

Happygrunt wrote:
No, I never check the numbers. Because Math-hammer goes out-the-fething-window when the game starts. I have played the game, while not as long as some, long enough to know that math-hammer dose not apply to the game. Its a great theory, but I would rather have experience tell me what to do then some pieces of paper. So if you say Las/Plas is the best thing on earth, that is all fine and good, but I would still rather take my TL-LC over it.

Hopefully you are saying you should pick up a feel for the probabilities rather than just ignore them completely. Which is all well and good but the AC is counter-intuitive as it is a gatling gun vs. futuristic laser cannon.

MFletch wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:
No, I never check the numbers. Because Math-hammer goes out-the-fething-window when the game starts. I have played the game, while not as long as some, long enough to know that math-hammer dose not apply to the game. Its a great theory, but I would rather have experience tell me what to do then some pieces of paper. So if you say Las/Plas is the best thing on earth, that is all fine and good, but I would still rather take my TL-LC over it.

Hopefully you are saying you should pick up a feel for the probabilities rather than just ignore them completely. Which is all well and good but the AC is counter-intuitive as it is a gatling gun vs. futuristic laser cannon.

Sure, take it into account, but math hammer is the average. Don't rely on it completely.

I did the math here a while ago: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/355350.page#2598068

I've also been running Las/Plas Razorbacks in my army since then. They've done quite well, and I've often been glad I went with them instead of the alternatives. I think the new GK codex has really pushed Las/Plas to the top of the list. TL-AC is really only good against vehicles and maybe high-value 4+ or less infantry. Cover and invul saves really cut into the usefulness of Rending against infantry in my experience.

The fact that you have two guns helps make the Razorbacks more resilient too. AV11 vehicles are not exactly sturdy.

Ya the Las/Plas is definitely the best choice.

It gives you the best chance of popping other metal boxes (AV 11) and also gives you the best chance of killing the most MEQs

LAS/PLAS In the Open 2.22 at 12"/ In Cover 1.11 at 12"/ In the Open 1.38 at 24"/ In Cover 0.69 at 24"
vs.
AC In the Open 1.11 at 12" or 24"/ In Cover 1.11 at 12" or 24" with the occasional rend, so maybe 1.22/1.17

While the AC may make up for this in its versatility against Hordes for some, and if you play in a FLGS with 2 ork players 1 nids player and 3 MEQ armies, go for the AC. Otherwise, go for the Las/Plas.

Overall, its better in Tournaments and worse in a real TOAC list


The TL-Las is not very good TBH, because, although the TL almost guarantees a hit, it makes it only a 1/3 chance of actually destroying a vehicle. The 3 shots from the Las/Plas have a higher chance of doing something.

Plus I really like Plasma........

PLASMA CANNON RAZORBACKS!!!!!!!!

Sorry I forgot to mention the anti-math posts, really do whatever you want, but I would recommend not ignoring the math entirely. I would gladly go up against you any day of the week over a math-head (read it correctly, it is NOT saying meth-head)
who is basing all of his moves on the probability of their success'.