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One of my "secrets" (only revealing because we are on Dakka) with Fatecrusher is I use a Forge World Lord of Change for Kairos. I am not sure if you have seen his base, but it is really large. I can easily command his Oracle of Eternity over 3 squads of 8 Blood Crushers

First - I'm not trying to call out the poster who said this (hence why I'm not linking the post). I don't live in his area, so it's unlikely that we will ever meet. I just want to know if it's something that should fly at a table, or if I should call a TO over about it (if it ever comes up in a tournament).

Isn't this basically the definition of modeling for advantage? Using a model with a larger base to gain size on a bubble power?

Theoretically if this is a TO then it will have been looked at and approved ... in practice single models can get missed. If in doubt (but only if your sure he's doing it for an advantage) call over an official and ask.

My objection is that there is a model for Kairos (one which is mounted on a 60mm base, much like the GW lord of Change)...so as such (in my mind) any representation of Kairos must be on the same size base (the whole base it came on thing)....now my other objection is that a Lord of Change and Kairos are not the same thing......
Its the same to me as using a Daemon Prince as a dreadknight...because its smaller and can more readily get cover saves.

Kairos IS a lord of change, jsut a special one Agreed that there is no way you should be able to use the 999 point LoC from FW as Kairos - that IS modelling for advantage, Nice model but use it as if it were a normal sized 60mm base.

That's a TFG move right there.
If he was doing it just becaus it was a cool model it wouldn't be so bad, but he's clearly doing if for in game advantage.

Well, models are supposed to be used with the base they are supplied with.

If you want to use another model as a conversion, then the rule still applied in regards to the base.

If you use model Y to represent model X, then Y has to be placed on the correct size base model X was supplied with.

Base size, and the resulting area of effect and chance of assaulting/shooting the model, are all factored into its point cost. Using a bigger base is cheating, IMO.

For me, it depends on the variable in base size. as an example:
25mm -> 40mm, Maybe, probably not
40mm -> 60mm, maybe, If the model doesn't fit on the 40mm
60mm -> 120mm oval, Never.

On the base size topic, the rulebook says that if you are using a larger/smaller base than the model comes with, you must ask your opponent's permission.
My friend and I have put our metal daemon princes on 60mm bases because their legs are too wide apart for the 40mm base to fit on it "comfortably." We rarely play with people outside our circle but when I do I always tell them about the rule and so far I haven't had anyone deny me using them.
Besides the guy/girl paid through the nose in order to get that advantage, its obvious that wining is THAT important to him/her that he/she would spend around 300USD for a (albeit sexy) hunk of resin

Someone like that should quickly run out of folks to play against at his LGS.

My looted deff dread is on the dreadknight oval base. I haven't had any problems at my FLGS with it but can foresee disputes if I were to take it to a tournament.

-cgmckenzie

Ork conversions always get close to the line. They look cool but sometimes end up huge. My FW battlewagon is larger than my GW one but I did get a PM on my club forum from another member the other day saying he thinks it is unfair that I stick my Big Mek in the FW BW since the footprint is larger than the current GW BW and can cover more area.

Yeah, that can be a problem. The only way around it that I can see besides limiting your awesome conversions is to invoke the rule of cool when questioned about it. 99% of the time, if the model is ballin' people won't mind but if it is a junk pile, prepare for some complaints.

-cgmckenzie

Right - and I get that some conversions will require a bigger base. My question was about someone using a bigger base/different model specifically because it got more range in the bubble than the "stock" model. For a conversion, I can maybe see the rule of cool. For a counts-as, I think it's a stretch (unless the models are the same size and base... at that point I don't care as long as they're wysiwyg).

That comes right under the definition of modeling for advantage. The model looks great, but it is not Kairos, who has his own model on an appropriately sized base.

If they are doing it because of the bigger bubble, then that is modeling for advantage and unacceptable. I like that my dreadknight/deffdread is looking over buildings when shooting at things, but I didn't plan it that way when converting it. If my opponent has a problem with it, I will say it can't.

-cgmckenzie

I admit, I'm guilty of up-sizing the base on my Avatar from the old square 40mm to one of the Wraithlord/war-walker sculpted 60mm ones (It really does look far better). I let my opponents know, and so far no issues. I wasn't thinking about the bubble power being measured from the base at the time, and if anyone had a problem with it I'll either have to swap the bases again or simply not use him.

In any case, one possible solution is to measure not from the edge of the actual base, but from where the edge of the proper sized base would be based on the center of the model. Easier said than done, of course (and it does not alleviate base-to-base contact issues), but it might be worth a shot.