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Hello,

New to fantasy and am working on an empire army. And I have serveral questions. I've been looking at both the BRB and my codex and its a lot to take in.

1. Someone at my FLGS said swordsmen get a 4+ save. I dont see how. Light armor is 6+ and a shield add +1 for a total of a 5+ armor save. Did he misspeak or did i over look something.

2. Swordsmen vs halberds. I am partial to swordsmen (they look cool), plus the +1 ws and int. But the +1 str ensures i wound more.

3. Templar grand master or General of the empire? The GM is more combat, while the general is more flexable.

4. Are Musicians, Standard Bearers, and Champions a must have. They seem to be to me but i'm new.

5. Same with the BSB is it a must have?

6. Warrior Priest. How good are they? I like the look and the prayers. Plus that +1 to dispel dice looks nice.

7. Is a wizard lord necessary or is a lvl 2 battle wizard good enough?

Thanks for the help and once i get some answers kill post a army list before i build any of my models.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Hello,

New to fantasy and am working on an empire army. And I have serveral questions. I've been looking at both the BRB and my codex and its a lot to take in.

1. Someone at my FLGS said swordsmen get a 4+ save. I dont see how. Light armor is 6+ and a shield add +1 for a total of a 5+ armor save. Did he misspeak or did i over look something.

Swordsman have a 5+ armor save (6+ For Light armor, improved to 5+ with shield). They also et a 6+ parry save in close combat due to hand weapon+ shield

2. Swordsmen vs halberds. I am partial to swordsmen (they look cool), plus the +1 ws and int. But the +1 str ensures i wound more.

Although swordsmen are pretty good, I would rate Halberdiers the best in 8th edition. Large blocks (40-50 in horde) with a Warrior Priest is cheap and will put out a lot of hurt. Don't forget that not only do you wound more, but you also reduce armor as well.

3. Templar grand master or General of the empire? The GM is more combat, while the general is more flexable.

Non of the above. Arch Lector has the same leadership as either of those, but has bound spells, 2+ dispel dice (huge in this edition), Hatred to a unit, and can be put on a War altar for Lore of Light access and 18" Inspiring Presence. Give him a Van Horstmens Specculum and he can challenge almost anyone. War Altar Lector is pretty much the default general choice for competitive Empire

4. Are Musicians, Standard Bearers, and Champions a must have. They seem to be to me but i'm new.

Musicians are auto-include on any size unit that can take one. Standard bearers are a must have on regular size units for blood and glory. Champions are taken if you have a character in the unit, as you can sacrifice him against an undesirable challenge, or access to special weapons (outriders, Handgunners, ect)

5. Same with the BSB is it a must have?

Pretty much mandatory unless you are playing extremely low points. Give him Armor of Metoric Iron and a Dawnstone and you are set.

6. Warrior Priest. How good are they? I like the look and the prayers. Plus that +1 to dispel dice looks nice.

Already went over the Arch Lector and Warrior Priests. A 100pt Warrior Priest in a block of 50 Halberds is huge - it bumps their leadership to 8 and gives them hatred. I run 1 Arch Lector and 2 Warrior Priests for +4 Dispel dice and hatred across my army.

7. Is a wizard lord necessary or is a lvl 2 battle wizard good enough?

Our Level 4 wizards are cheap, so I would take one if points permit. Give him a decent ward save, Rod of Power if you are sporting extra dispel dice, and take lore of Shadow or Life (works well with Empire lists). An additional level 1 scroll caddy with dispel scroll and Fire or Metal doesn't hurt either.

Thanks for the help and once i get some answers kill post a army list before i build any of my models.

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Another point that I would look into is Empire artillery. We have some of the best and most cost efficient war machines in the game (Mortars especially), and would include no less then 4 in a standard Empire list (2 Cannon 2 Mortar is fine).

@scubasteve4

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm a noob, and I'm looking to start up an Empire army as well. Namely a bunch of converted Knights of Morr.

Do you have any advice for an all mounted army?

I'm planning on running an Arch Lector on a War Altar an Arch Priest on an Altar of Morr, along with a bunch of knights.

I was planning on taking a BSB, then a pair of either Priests or Lvl2 Death Wizards.

Since I'm going to be running a low model army, I'm going to need a bunch of stuff to combat magic. Would I be better off taking the priests for more dispel dice or the wizards to try and snipe enemy casters with their death magic?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Honestly I would take a mix of both. Get 2 Warrior Priests (on mounted warhorses) in your unit of Knights, then run a Wizard mounted on a pegasus with a 4+ save and Rod of Power (on a pegasus so he can keep pace with the all mounted army, but not stuck in combat with the Knights) and give him Lore of Life (give your Knights T 7 and res dead Knights, and dwellers to combat large blocks of infantry).

With that you should have 4+ dispel dice and 4+ to casting and dispel rolls, along with the ability to transfer dice from cast to dispel or dispel to cast will result in very dominant casting and dispel phases. If the Wizard is too much, then you can probably squeeze buy without him or just stick him on a warhorse. (He is 325pts with the gear I suggested)

I'm with scubasteve on this. The extra dispel dice are nice, but I don't think it completely compensates for not having that +X from your own wizard. It is also nice if you can get 2 casters in the list since Empire can essentially take 2 dispel scrolls and one of them (Seal of destruction) has the potential to eliminate one of your opponent's spells from the game.

Also, the casket seems like it would potentially add a lot to your magic defense (it has a chance to steal one of your opponent's spells every turn and then let you cast it as a bound spell). I have never used it though, so am curious about the experiences that other Empire generals have had with it.

edited to remove garble

scubasteve04 wrote:Honestly I would take a mix of both. Get 2 Warrior Priests (on mounted warhorses) in your unit of Knights, then run a Wizard mounted on a pegasus with a 4+ save and Rod of Power (on a pegasus so he can keep pace with the all mounted army, but not stuck in combat with the Knights) and give him Lore of Life (give your Knights T 7 and res dead Knights, and dwellers to combat large blocks of infantry).

With that you should have 4+ dispel dice and 4+ to casting and dispel rolls, along with the ability to transfer dice from cast to dispel or dispel to cast will result in very dominant casting and dispel phases. If the Wizard is too much, then you can probably squeeze buy without him or just stick him on a warhorse. (He is 325pts with the gear I suggested)

Thanks for the advice. I think I'm going to have to avoid the Wiz Lord, at least for now. Once I build up the list to the point he can fit in I'll grab him.

Verd_Warr wrote:I'm with scubasteve on this. The extra dispel dice are nice, but I don't think it completely compensates for not having that +X from your own wizard. It is also nice if you can get 2 casters in the list since Empire can essentially take 2 dispel scrolls and one of them (Seal of destruction) has the potential to eliminate onne of your opponent's spells from the game.

Also, the casket seems like it would potentially add a lot to your magic defense (it has a chance to steal one of your opponent's spells every turn and then let you cast it as a bound spell). I have never used it though, so am curious about how the experiences that other Empire generals have had with it.

Could I put the scrolls on the priests? I thought since they cast bound spells, I could give them arcane items.

Thatguyoverthere wrote:Could I put the scrolls on the priests? I thought since they cast bound spells, I could give them arcane items.

Nope, sorry, only wizards (i.e. only a character with a Wizard level - top of pg. 176 BRB) can carry Arcane magic items. WPs/ALs are not wizards.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:1. Someone at my FLGS said swordsmen get a 4+ save. I dont see how. Light armor is 6+ and a shield add +1 for a total of a 5+ armor save. Did he misspeak or did i over look something.

As has been pointed out, they only get a 5+ save, and their 6+ parry. One of two things has happened, there was a miscommunication and the guy was talking about greatswords who do get a 4+ save, or the guy was thinking about a previous edition of WHFB, where sword and shield had a different rule, and swordsmen would have a 4+ save in CC.

2. Swordsmen vs halberds. I am partial to swordsmen (they look cool), plus the +1 ws and int. But the +1 str ensures i wound more.

Halberdiers are the best option you have for killing enemy troops, point for point. If you want a unit that you can take in massive numbers, and just grind opposition down to nothing these are the guys to do it.

Swordsmen are more survivable, and in certain condition they're much more survivable. The 6+ parry and 5+ armour are nice and will keep more troops around for longer, but the big deal is when you expect you'll come up against an opponent with WS 4 - then the higher WS of the swordsmen makes them a lot more survivable.

Personally I take a unit of each. I try to line each of them up against an enemy infantry unit based on which one I want to hold in place and which one I want to defeat, swordsmen for the former, halberdiers for the latter. Then I focus my magic and missile fire on the halberiers target so that it's a much weaker unit that my halberdiers can grind down, while my swordsmen (hopefully) hold out the other unit.

3. Templar grand master or General of the empire? The GM is more combat, while the general is more flexable.

They're both okay. Ultimately, you're never going to get great killing power or incredible leadership out of an Empire general. The Arch Lector is generally preferred for this reason, he gives you the LD9 bubble, and the nice hatred, dispel dice and casting options on top of that.

4. Are Musicians, Standard Bearers, and Champions a must have. They seem to be to me but i'm new.

In any unit of any decent size, musicians and standard bearers are really nice for the points they cost. Champions are a lot less useful - the extra attack really doesn't add up to a whole lot at the end of the day, but they do mean the champion can accept challenges instead of other more valuable characters in the unit. This is especially nice for the Empire, because your characters can be especially squishy.

5. Same with the BSB is it a must have?

Yep, a must have. They're absolutely vital for an attritional game, where you can expect to make lots of breaktests as you grind the enemy down - and the Empire basically has to play this game. Keeping the BSB alive will likely take up a lot of tactical considerations.

6. Warrior Priest. How good are they? I like the look and the prayers. Plus that +1 to dispel dice looks nice.

They're great. Any front line combat unit should take one for hatred, and you get those dispel dice on top. The spells are a nice bonus.

7. Is a wizard lord necessary or is a lvl 2 battle wizard good enough?

It depends on the size of the game, your play style and the kind of opponents you face. It's really something you'll have to learn over playing.

Should I take Greatswords?

Greatswords from playing against empire a lot, I find them to be a super dangerous unit. I tend to put considerable missle fire and magic into them before I reach the battle line.

Greatswords are amazing elite infantry for Empire. They put out a lot of hurt with massed great weapon attacks (with hatred if a WP is around) and they are also very hard to break in combat with stubborn. They make a great bunker for your BSB and General as well. I run 40 Greatswords with my BSB and Arch Lector attached.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Should I take Greatswords?

I like them, the big unit of Greatswords I sometimes put at the centre of my battle line looks fantastic, is pretty tough for empire standards, and can hold their own against pretty good quality enemy units.

However, even when it does well I'm left wondering it's really better than what would be twice as many halberdiers for the same price.

Some folk swear by Greatswords. I think they're good enough, for the most part.

You'll probably just have to figure out for yourself whether they fit with your playstyle, and work in your meta game.

sebster wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Should I take Greatswords?

I like them, the big unit of Greatswords I sometimes put at the centre of my battle line looks fantastic, is pretty tough for empire standards, and can hold their own against pretty good quality enemy units.

However, even when it does well I'm left wondering it's really better than what would be twice as many halberdiers for the same price.

Some folk swear by Greatswords. I think they're good enough, for the most part.

You'll probably just have to figure out for yourself whether they fit with your playstyle, and work in your meta game.

I swear by greatswords. My 2200-point list has 2 units of 27, run 4x7 with a priest. Their advantage over halberds is another point of strength, and of course an armor save, but mainly, they are stubborn. You normally need about 20 halberdiers or so to be steadfast, but the very last lonely greatsword champ is stubborn all by himself. I've had great success with them. Then, too, you have to paint less models, of course.

So i was thinking of putting priests in my halberds, due to hatred and the higher leadership. Is this wise or should i put captains in the ranks to boost ld?

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So i was thinking of putting priests in my halberds, due to hatred and the higher leadership. Is this wise or should i put captains in the ranks to boost ld?

WP has the same Ld as a Captain, but also gives you the aforementioned Hatred and prayers (for more points of course).


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I normally run an Arch Lector as my general and put him in my block of 50 Halberdiers. Same leadership as a General of the Empire and hatred (and the unbreakable prayer if you can get it off) really helps out those WS3 guys.

So i put a priest in each og my blobs, cast this spell and pressto, no running away. Nice, i didnt see that until you pointed it out. still really new to whfb.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So i put a priest in each og my blobs, cast this spell and pressto, no running away. Nice, i didnt see that until you pointed it out. still really new to whfb.

If only it were that simple You can't really count on the prayers like that imho, they are pretty easy to counter, but they do give you another tool to use in the magic phase. If nothing else it may make your opponent save/use a dispel die or two to keep you from getting unbreakable (or that d6 s4 hits, or healing a character, etc.).

edited to add
And if they burn all their dispel dice you have 50/50 to get that prayer off, even if you have just one pow die left.

But yes, for all the reasons already mentioned, it is nice to have them in all your blobs. I usually run 2 WP and an AL (at 1500-2000); AL in the Halberds & WPs in the swords & greatswords.

oh. Forgot about dispeal, Still thining in 40k terms.

Malleus wrote:I swear by greatswords. My 2200-point list has 2 units of 27, run 4x7 with a priest. Their advantage over halberds is another point of strength, and of course an armor save, but mainly, they are stubborn. You normally need about 20 halberdiers or so to be steadfast, but the very last lonely greatsword champ is stubborn all by himself. I've had great success with them.

True, instead of 4x7 greatswords you could have 5x10 halberdiers, with 30 points to spare.

Stubborn is great, but having loads of ranks does twice as much, in that it grants you stubborn if you lose combat, and also denies the enemy stubborn if you win. This makes the deeper unit of halberdiers a little more likely to break the enemy if they win combat.

I'm not saying Greatswords are bad, I use them and get good service out of them. I'm just saying they've got advantages and disadvantages, and ultimately it's up to the individual to decide if he can good value out of them or not.

Then, too, you have to paint less models, of course.

This is a good point. Internet discussions are often played out with no limits on models - see all the conversations about all conquering armies of 4 or more units of skaven slaves of 100 rats each.

That said, buying greatswords box by box is a pretty expensive way of building an army. The batallion box is the better deal, and that comes with both unit types.


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ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So i was thinking of putting priests in my halberds, due to hatred and the higher leadership. Is this wise or should i put captains in the ranks to boost ld?

Any Empire unit that is put into the field with the intent to defeat enemy units in melee should have a priest. Having hatred in that first round of combat really makes a huge difference. You'll probably have two such units, and the extra two dispel dice are a really nice bonus (you can then take an arch lector as well, boosting that to 4 DD, giving you really strong magic defence).

Other units that are there to hold up enemy units, or provide ranged fire or whatever can do without priests.

Captains... are handy for their price, and taking them isn't a bad option, they certainly won't make it hard to win, but they're not as strong an option as the warrior priests.


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Verd_Warr wrote:edited to add
And if they burn all their dispel dice you have 50/50 to get that prayer off, even if you have just one pow die left.

Yeah, I find this is where prayers can come in handy - when the other guy has used up his dispel dice then you can throw out a couple of prayers at the end of the phase. I normally go with the 4+ ward save, if it's early in the game.

Is it worth it to buy shields for halberds?

schadenfreude wrote:Is it worth it to buy shields for halberds?

Pretty much never. They can't use them in combat, and against missile fire they're only saving 1/6 more guys.

Think of it this way, if you had 120 points to spend on halberdiers, you could get 24 guys without shields, or 20 guys with shields. To actually end up with the same number of guys reaching combat if you'd bought the shields, you'd have to get wounded by 24 ranged attacks, at which point each unit would have lost 20 guys anyway.

So, basically, shields are worth it if you expect the unit in question to suffer at least one wounding hit per soldier from ranged fire before they reach combat, and you are okay with reaching combat with less than a quarter of your starting troops.

Yea I see your point there seb. I was thinking of going with shields for a thick unit of steadfast to anchor a character or 2 in, but upon more thought I may as well go with swordsmen if I want to build an anvil unit.

5 point halberds also do seem ideal for a detachment.

schadenfreude wrote:Yea I see your point there seb. I was thinking of going with shields for a thick unit of steadfast to anchor a character or 2 in, but upon more thought I may as well go with swordsmen if I want to build an anvil unit.

5 point halberds also do seem ideal for a detachment.

Halberds still work nicely as an anvil unit, though, because at the end of the day they're 5 points so you can take a whole lot of them. At the end of the day the sheer number of ranks will count for a lot. Swordsmen can last a bit longer, though, especially when you think it's likely the enemy might have WS 4.

For detachments, I take halberdiers every time these days. I thought at first that swordsmen might be better because they last a little longer, but in time I found that disruption is nice, but what I really liked about the flanking detachments was getting two ranks of attacks to his one (and not even that, if the trooper was already committed to fighting in the front ranks). When you get an advantage like that you want it to be with your most attacking troops, and for the Empire that means halberds.

Greatswords make the ultimate bunker/anvil unit, although come at a premium cost. WS 4, Full Plate, and stubborn means they are really tough to kill (for Empire standards anyway). Halberds and swordsmen are good and all, but steadfast isn't always 100%. Stubborn is.