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FNP ignores the unsaved wound.

To have an effect trigger off of that unsaved wound is not Ignoring that wound.

whembly wrote:
Naw... he's reacting to why people are looking at him strangely... not that fact that there's a chicken sitting on his head...

And what is the cause of people looking at him strangely?

Something the game tells us to ignore. It does not tell one person to ignore it and everyone else to not ignore it. As a whole we are told to ignore the wound, so that means everyone involved.

There are two ways to determine the effects of the hex rifle and FNP.

#1:

Roll FNP first and on a 4-6 ignore the wound. roll for the hex rifle effect, but as we are told to ignore the wound nothing happens when we fail this test.

Roll Hexrifle first then if we fail, roll for FNP and on a 4-6 ignore the wound and of course this means we have to ignore the effects of the hexrifle as we are told to ignore the wound.

puma713 wrote:Actually, it never says to "ignore the wound". It says to "ignore the injury". That could mean a lot of different things. . .

It says to ignore the injury. Look at FNP 1-3 take the WOUND as normal 4-6 Ignore it (the Injury). The injury is referring to the wound mentioned previously.

whembly wrote:Both steps occurs independently from one other.. that is, it's possible to pass the FnP test, but fail the Wound Characteristic test, thus removing the model from play.

If you let the Hex rifle trigger, then you are not ignoring the wound. Its not that the wound didn't happen, but we are told to ignore it, so for all intents and purposes it never happened, since we are told to ignore it.

Models are not removed until the end of the process.

FNP ignores the injury before the model removal step.

If you roll FNP before the Hex rifle or after, it does not matter, since once you pass FNP you are told to Ignore the wound.

If the hex rifle triggers off a wound we are told to ignore then were are not ignoring it, and breaking FNP's rule.

whembly wrote:@DeathReaper
But the Hexrifle's Characteristic Wound Test doesn't cause any wound... it removes model from play if the test fails. This doesn't break the FnP rule.
Both test can occur at the same time without breaking each other's rule.

No they can not.

If you try to affect the game through a wound you are ignoring, then you have broken FNP by not ignoring said wound.

puma713 wrote:Right. You've made the case for me. It says take "THE WOUND" as normal. It has nothing to do with the "unsaved wound" or the "act of wounding". Hence, you can "ignore the wound" and still have been affected by "suffering an unsaved wound". It tells you to ignore the product of the action, not the action itself.

No, because if you ignore the wound, you ignore everything that comes after "THE WOUND" since you are ignoring it.

Nothing can trigger from said "THE WOUND" because to have "THE WOUND" affect the game is not not ignore "THE WOUND".

Look at FNP again, "if a model with this ability suffers and UNSAVED WOUND, roll a dice. On a 1-3 take the wound as normal..."

The wound is referring to the Unsaved wound earlier in the sentence. So FNP tells us we must ignore the injury, which = wound which = unsaved wound.

We have to pretend we never failed that armor/cover/invuln save and we have to pretend the Unsaved Wound does not exist.

whembly wrote:

Yonush wrote:FNP says ignore the injury. If you have any additional effects from that wound its no longer ignored. Option A

I disagree with that. FnP says the injury is ignored... not that fact that the "unsaved" wound didn't happen.

Disagree all you want, but the rules tell us to pretend the wound never happened/AkA Ignore the wound.

If we pretend the unsaved wound never happened, we can not trigger any effects that happen because of that unsaved wound. To do so would be not ignoring the wound.

Also order of operations has no effect.

Roll them at the same time, but everything hinges on FNP anyway.

1-3 take the wound as normal, the wound happened as normal.

4-6 Ignore it. Pretend it never happened. No effects of the wound are applied as we are ignoring it.

Both FNP and Hex rifle have to be rolled for before the model is removed, but if we roll a 4-6 on FNP it does not matter what we roll for the hexrifle, since were now ignoring the wound before the model is removed.

The action happened.

we fail our armor save.

We pass FNP.

We are now told to IGNORE the Unsaved wound (Pretend it did not happen)

The action, weather it happened or not, is irrelevant at this point because we are told to ignore it.

Hex rifle triggers as well, but since we are ignoring the wound we can not trigger any effects of said wound we are ignoring.

puma713 wrote:
You ignore the wound, not the suffering of the wound, which is the trigger for both tests.

It does not matter since you are ignoring the unsaved wound you have to ignore all parts of said unsaved wound.

FNP says if the model suffers an unsaved wound roll a dice

1-3 take the (Unsaved) wound as normal

4-6 Ignore the injury (Unsaved wound).

Injury = wound = unsaved wound.

Triggering the Hexrifle does not matter since we are now ignoring the Unsaved wound. You can resolve the test, but there is no reason to resolve the test.

Disagree all you want, but unless you can find actual rules to agree with you you are not correct and are making a house rule.

It is on Page 75 Under Feel No Pain.

75 on the BRB FNP states:
"...a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice. On a 1, 2, or 3, take the wound as normal (removing the model if it loses if final Wound). On a 4, 5, or 6, the injury is ignored and the model continues fighting...."

FNP states "a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound" This establishes that we are talking about an unsaved wound.

The very next sentence states "take the wound as normal" What wound? what could they mean? They must be referencing the unsaved wound in the previous sentence.

Later in that sentence "the injury is ignored" What Injury? they must be talking about the aforementioned wound from the "take the wound as normal" quote, which I have proven is in reference to the aforementioned unsaved wound.

biccat wrote:
The problem with this reasoning is that you're prioritizing the FNP roll. Prioritize the Hex Rifle rule and you get the following (T3):
1-3 - model takes unsaved wound, roll FNP.
4-6 - model is removed from play.

How do you resolve the FNP rule if you fail the Hex save? You can't, because the model has been removed from play.

(or, we could note that models don't suffer unsaved wounds, so FNP and Hex Rifle simply don't work)

I am not Prioritizing at all, the wording of FNP does that for us.

By definition both effects are triggered at the same time.

we can take them both at the same time, and their effects will apply at the same time. It is just easier and more logical that we take FNP first because if we pass FNP there is no need for the hex rifle test.

Due to FNP's wording if we pass our FNP we have to ignore the unsaved wound (AKA Pretend it never happened).

So no matter what the outcome of the Hex rifle is, if we pass FNP we ignore the unsaved wound (Pretend it never happened) and go on about our game.

It happened, but we have to pretend it never happened due to FNP and the wording of Ignore.

whembly wrote:But no where there tells you to retroactively disregard the "unsaved wound"... the same event that "triggers" the FnP rule still exists... thus the Hexrifle's Wound test still applies.

The wording Ignore in the FNP rule tell us to pay no attention to the Unsaved wound, so we must pretend it does not exist.

If it does not exist then we can not trigger the hex rifles effect, since the unsaved wound does not exist.

puma713 wrote:Nearly everything in this post is made up by you and has no backup whatsoever in the rulebook.

DeathReaper wrote:

we can take them both at the same time, and their effects will apply at the same time. It is just easier and more logical that we take FNP first because if we pass FNP there is no need for the hex rifle test.

This is laughable. Using a fallacy of logic to come up with an answer that is "more logical". Please, tell another!

This is not a fallacy of logic, you ignore the wound then nothing can trigger off of that wound that we are ignoring.

puma713 wrote:So, where does it say this in the rules? You don't seem to see the distinction between suffering an unsaved wound, and actually applying the loss of the wound. Those are two separate parts of the rules - taking a wound, making a save, and removing the casualty. The suffering of the wound and the wound exist apart from each other. One is the action, the other is the product of the action.

With FNP you ignore the Injury. The injury is referring to the wound/unsaved wound as noted in the FNP entry.

DeathReaper wrote:

puma713 wrote:Due to FNP's wording if we pass our FNP we have to ignore the unsaved wound (AKA Pretend it never happened).

Again, your wording. You've applied your own defintion to "injury" just as we have. There is nothing supporting either of our claims that "injury" = unsaved wound versus "injury" = wound. However, there is more proof that it means " the wound itself" and not the definitive "unsaved wound", because it goes on to address the "wound". You've simply twisted the words in the book to the meaning that is convenient to your argument. Funny thing is, earlier in the thread you were saying that it meant WOUND (you even put it in caps) - now you've changed your mind because. . . .it doesn't support your viewpoint?

I take it you meant this quote " Look at FNP 1-3 take the WOUND as normal 4-6 Ignore it (the Injury)."

It was to highlight that Injury = WOUND
We know Wound = Unsaved wound, as I have proven, its on you to prove otherwise.

DeathReaper wrote:

puma713 wrote:So no matter what the outcome of the Hex rifle is, if we pass FNP we ignore the unsaved wound (Pretend it never happened) and go on about our game.

In all of your statements, you've still yet to prove this in any way, shape or form. You just keep repeating it.

Ignore means to pretend something never happened, the dictionary proves this for me.

DeathReaper wrote:

puma713 wrote:It happened, but we have to pretend it never happened due to FNP and the wording of Ignore.

Okay, you're almost there. "It happened" (you suffering an unsaved wound), but due to FNP (the EXACT words of FNP), the WOUND is ignored (not the SUFFERING of the wound) and so, both tests are resolved because it is the SUFFERING of the wound that triggers both tests, not the wound itself.

See my earlier post on how Unsaved wound = Wound = Injury. That sums it up right there.

puma713 wrote:To say that you ignore the product of an action, so the action never happened is, in fact, a logical fallacy. You can ignore the unsaved wound all you want. It was the suffering of the unsaved wound that triggered both rules.

If you Ignore the Unsaved wound, why are you triggering any effects of that unsaved wound, Clearly FNP says to ignore it, so we ignore it and move on.

It's not that the unsaved wound never happened, but we have to PRETEND it never happened due to FNP's language of Ignoring the wound. This is what you are not getting.

puma713 wrote:I completely agree. You ignore the wound. You do not ignore the fact that you took an unsaved wound. The trigger for both tests.

You do ignore the Unsaved wound, I.E. Pretend it never happened, maybe we need to explain what Ignore means.

puma713 wrote:I don't need to prove otherwise. You ignore the wound. I agree. You do not ignore the original suffering of the wound because you ignore the wound. The process for the Hex Rifle has already started.

Every time you suggest this, you commit the logical fallacy I've been talking about.

How long you wanna do this, DeathReaper?

You ignore the Unsaved wound.

AkA we Pretend the Unsaved wound never happened.

Dictionary definitions are not allowed to be posted in the forum, so I will use a link to Ignore
If we refuse to pay attention to the unsaved wound nothing can trigger off the unsaved wound, since we are ignoring it.
If we disregard the unsaved wound nothing can trigger off the unsaved wound, since we are ignoring it.

I really do not understand how you do not understand the word Ignore.