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Hey Dakka,

What do you all think about using Fear of the darkness against orks?

I feel it would work well on the smaller ork units, but not so great on the big mobs......

Thoughts? Any tactical advice of BA vs. Orks??

Cheers,

Falco

It won't work at all on big mobs as 11+ boyz are fearless

However if they use like 5 man loota squads, it'd work well

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:It won't work at all on big mobs as 11+ boyz are fearless

However if they use like 5 man loota squads, it'd work well

Yeah that is what i thought as well.

Does the fearless rule apply at the beggining of the turn or at the end? EG. i kill enough of the mob in shooting to drop them below 11, do they take a test or are they still fearless at the end of the turn?? sorry dont have the dex with me.

It applies whenever a test is taken. If they have to test against FoD mid turn and have over 11 boyz, they are fine. once you kill them below that point, however, they must test at the end.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:It applies whenever a test is taken. If they have to test against FoD mid turn and have over 11 boyz, they are fine. once you kill them below that point, however, they must test at the end.

-cgmckenzie

Excellent, Thanks. Strat: Shoot shoot shoot, FoD, hopefully rest of mob runs.

Some Tactical advice vs. Orks:

1-2 Furi Dreads w/ Blood Talons= watch hilarity ensue and ork players wondering where 27 out of their 30 boy mobs just went to heh.

Considering only 4 attacks and a 3+ to hit, that's quite unlikely.

I must say, I was highly unimpressed when I first met Blood Talons on the table. While still not bad, they don't live up to their reputation, any enemy CC-character kills just as many boyz in CC. The nob will have two or three tries to kill the dread before the mob is gone, if your goal was to tarpit the mob, you can just do that, but don't expect 20 orks(mobs of 30 should only be used at very high point level) to simply disapear because of a few additional attacks.

Doing the maths I think the expectation is near 2 dead per original attack so 8 dead all together. I can not think of a character who has that many attacks let alone that many expected wounds.

However it is also likely that he'll only a handful or he'll take out most of the boyz but such is problem with just using averages.

Jidmah wrote:Considering only 4 attacks and a 3+ to hit, that's quite unlikely.

I must say, I was highly unimpressed when I first met Blood Talons on the table. While still not bad, they don't live up to their reputation, any enemy CC-character kills just as many boyz in CC. The nob will have two or three tries to kill the dread before the mob is gone, if your goal was to tarpit the mob, you can just do that, but don't expect 20 orks(mobs of 30 should only be used at very high point level) to simply disapear because of a few additional attacks.

This is basically true, but no CC character in the BA codex is going to kill a good 6-8 boyz, they don't really have that many attacks, and they will probably just get Power Klawed.

Thing to keep in mind with blendernauts is that their front armor is 13. A PK nob only has a 17% chance to glance or penetrate. The rest of the boyz can't even hurt it. While it's not unheard of for the PK nob to open up the blendernaut in the 2-3 rounds of combat that those two are going to be clashing, I'd bet my money on the blendernaught more often than not.

That's personally how I plan on dealing with 30 boy mobz with my BA list. Keep 60 orkz tarpitted with my 2 blendernaughts, with a good chance that I'll come out on top on the end. Thing you'd wanna watch out for is killa kanz in a kan wall list. A str 6 dreadnaught isn't going to last too long against 3 kanz with DCCW's.

Yeah, I have had really good luck with the blendernaught agianst the bigger mobs.

The reason I was asking about FoD is that I am going to be playing in a doubles tourny with a Tau Player and we are each allowed to take 1000 pts. My list as it stands is BA Mech:

Libby w/Hand Flamer
FoD/Shield

Sang Priest

Assualt Squad w/ PF and Melta
Las/Plas Razorback

Assualt Squad w/ PF and Melta
Las/Plas Razorback

Assualt Squad w/ Hand Flamer and Flamer
Las/Plas Razorback

Baal Pred w/ AC/HB

Baal Pred w/ AC/HB

We also have to share force org so all the elite slots are filled right now, so as it stands no blendernaught.

Mustela wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Considering only 4 attacks and a 3+ to hit, that's quite unlikely.

I must say, I was highly unimpressed when I first met Blood Talons on the table. While still not bad, they don't live up to their reputation, any enemy CC-character kills just as many boyz in CC. The nob will have two or three tries to kill the dread before the mob is gone, if your goal was to tarpit the mob, you can just do that, but don't expect 20 orks(mobs of 30 should only be used at very high point level) to simply disapear because of a few additional attacks.

This is basically true, but no CC character in the BA codex is going to kill a good 6-8 boyz, they don't really have that many attacks, and they will probably just get Power Klawed.

Let's say 4-6 boyz and you're at a more realistic level. A level which other CC characters like a warboss, abbadon, draigo, a tyranid prime, mephiston or the sanguinor can easily match - just to name a few that don't care about klaws. Seven or even eight boyz would be heavily based on dice luck, as you are only going to cause wounds with a little more than half your attacks on average (2/3 * 5/6 = .55). Assuming no stupid stuff like grotznik cybork of course.

Lokas wrote:Thing to keep in mind with blendernauts is that their front armor is 13. A PK nob only has a 17% chance to glance or penetrate. The rest of the boyz can't even hurt it. While it's not unheard of for the PK nob to open up the blendernaut in the 2-3 rounds of combat that those two are going to be clashing, I'd bet my money on the blendernaught more often than not.

That's personally how I plan on dealing with 30 boy mobz with my BA list. Keep 60 orkz tarpitted with my 2 blendernaughts, with a good chance that I'll come out on top on the end. Thing you'd wanna watch out for is killa kanz in a kan wall list. A str 6 dreadnaught isn't going to last too long against 3 kanz with DCCW's.

Keep in mind that a good ork player would field 3x20 rather than 2x30, for that exact reason. If he does, be prepared for it, if he doesn't, well, have fun blending orks

Falco wrote:Yeah, I have had really good luck with the blendernaught agianst the bigger mobs.

The reason I was asking about FoD is that I am going to be playing in a doubles tourny with a Tau Player and we are each allowed to take 1000 pts.

We also have to share force org so all the elite slots are filled right now, so as it stands no blendernaught.

In that case I'll just echo what has already been said. Shoot the boyz up until they're under 11 models, and then hit them with FoD. Should work like a charm. Alternatively, use it to run lootas off the table.

Jidmah wrote:Keep in mind that a good ork player would field 3x20 rather than 2x30, for that exact reason. If he does, be prepared for it, if he doesn't, well, have fun blending orks

Absolutely true. But I'd rather having 20 orks free to do what it is orks do as opposed to 60. Even if I'm only taking 40 out of the fight for a few turns, and they do end up wrecking the blendernoughts that's a few turns where my Assault Marines can do their thing unmolested.

Jidmah I got no clue what noob BA player you were playing but excluding the occasional extra horrible roll the Dread starts out with 4 attacks( on the charge), needing 3+ to hit and 2+ (rerolling) to wound @ I 4 ( I 5 if hes hilariously thirsted ) and then its rinse and repeat dropping 30 boyz in 1 to 2 rounds of combat is nooooo problem what so ever on the average.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
other then the Dread, the only other BA that can get close to that ability would be Seth but he would hafta rely on the orks rolling 1's so he can punch them all in the mouth lol

Jidmah wrote:
Let's say 4-6 boyz and you're at a more realistic level. A level which other CC characters like a warboss, abbadon, draigo, a tyranid prime, mephiston or the sanguinor can easily match - just to name a few that don't care about klaws. Seven or even eight boyz would be heavily based on dice luck, as you are only going to cause wounds with a little more than half your attacks on average (2/3 * 5/6 = .55).

I didn't do all that maths for it to be disregarded. On average each attack kills (35/19), 4 lots of which are 7.4 so you expect to see 7 dead bodies.

It's funny how dice rarely ever listen to math though isn't it?

noob question lol: so with the Bloodtalons....I have only been rolling one failed wound roll, but after re-reading the rule for lightning claws it sounds like you can re-roll all of your failed wounds. Help a brother out.

Yeah it's all failed wounds

Mantis840 wrote:Jidmah I got no clue what noob BA player you were playing but excluding the occasional extra horrible roll the Dread starts out with 4 attacks( on the charge), needing 3+ to hit and 2+ (rerolling) to wound @ I 4 ( I 5 if hes hilariously thirsted ) and then its rinse and repeat dropping 30 boyz in 1 to 2 rounds of combat is nooooo problem what so ever on the average.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
other then the Dread, the only other BA that can get close to that ability would be Seth but he would hafta rely on the orks rolling 1's so he can punch them all in the mouth lol

You should probably cut back on all that "Noob" and "lol" and rather should do the math yourself.

4 attacks, hitting on a 3+ = 2.66
2.66 hits, wounding on a 2+ = 2.22
0.44 failed wounds, reroll = 0.37
2.59 unsaved wounds
2.59 dead orks

2.59 attacks, hitting on 3+ = 1.73
1.73 hits, wounding on a 2+ = 1.44
0.27 failed wounds, reroll = 0.24
1.68 unsaved wounds
4.27 dead orks

1.68 attacks, hitting on 3+ = 1.12
1.73 hits, wounding on a 2+ = 0.93
0.19 failed wounds, reroll = 0.16
1.09 unsaved wounds
5.36 dead orks

1.09 attacks, hitting on 3+ = 0.73
0.73 hits, wounding on a 2+ = 0.61
0.12 failed wounds, reroll = 0.10
0.71 unsaved wounds
6.07 dead orks

0.71 attacks, hitting on 3+ = 0.47
0.47 hits, wounding on a 2+ = 0.39
0.08 failed wounds, reroll = 0.07
0.46 unsaved wounds
6.53 dead orks

All rounding done in favor of the furioso. So tell me, how do you kill 30 orks in one round of combat if you only kill about 10, including fearless wounds? The chances of actually blending 15 orks is much, much lower as you whiffing all your attacks first time around or the nob wrecking your dread in first turn of combat.

Dice do listen to math. You just have to apply the right math to it.

MFletch: I think you went wrong where you were assuming that each initial attack kills two orks - not all initial attacks hit.

Start with one attack

2/3 to hit. wounds with 35/36 chance.

So any attack will kill a ork 35/56 probability.

Now we look at far this one attack goes.

0 dead 1-35/56
1 dead 35/56(1-35/56)
2 dead (35/56)^2(1-35/56)
etc.

the sum of [number of dead times chance of getting that many dead] is the definition of expectation.

Sum it up and it gives (35/19). Yes this also includes killing more than 30 orks but that isn't much. Also expectation is a rubbish statistic.

Sure the answer is do not be surprised if the dread dies or kills everyone in the first round. This feels so orky, add the death company and I feel at home.

Fyi heres the honest to goodness DICE results(minus any fearless saves) just rolled from 3 different sets of dice:

Set 1( GW dice ) = 8 wounds

Set 2 ( chessex dice )= 17 wounds

Set 3 (bicycle dice)( had to go search the old gaming drawer to find these heh)= 11 wounds

so... hmmm that was done with actual dice and they don't seem to match the math averages, why????? oh yeah cuz unweighted dice are RANDOM....Heh yep thats ok, you math boyz keep crunchin your number and i'll keep playing and watching the real results happen in games( not just my own.).... in the end we all just can agree to disagree.

Mantis840 wrote:

Fyi heres the honest to goodness DICE results(minus any fearless saves) just rolled from 3 different sets of dice:

Set 1( GW dice ) = 8 wounds

Set 2 ( chessex dice )= 17 wounds

Set 3 (bicycle dice)( had to go search the old gaming drawer to find these heh)= 11 wounds

so... hmmm that was done with actual dice and they don't seem to match the math averages, why????? oh yeah cuz unweighted dice are RANDOM....Heh yep thats ok, you math boyz keep crunchin your number and i'll keep playing and watching the real results happen in games( not just my own.).... in the end we all just can agree to disagree.

Hoo boy here we go...

You rolled once for each die. If you know the first thing about statistics, it's that averages tend to work out in the end - that is, you need to have a proper sample size to get the average. In 1 die roll, you might not find that the dice are rolling the average, but over 1,000 or 10,000 die rolls you should find that the results are averaging out. Try it.

Anyway, point is that while Blood Talons may reap a mob of Ork Boyz in one battle, they may also completely whiff all their attacks in another, while they will generally get 6-8 kills (or whatever we've determined the average to be).

Heh yeah a D comp Dread in that situation(assuming hes not kited) would burn even more down.

I've seen a fire dragon take down 2 obliterators in CC

I've seen a LR run a 1200 ptsfull TW w/ Lords, and a saga of majesty right off the table ( LD 10, re-rolling)

Hell i've even seen a WW bring down a full Dreadknight in CC

So I really don't care about what numbers are crunched, I only care about what actually happens out on the table


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah i'm done talking about this topic, all yall math boyz keep your calculators close, and i'll keep going out and winning tournaments with what I know works, take care.

Mantis840 wrote:Heh yeah a D comp Dread in that situation(assuming hes not kited) would burn even more down.

I've seen a fire dragon take down 2 obliterators in CC

I've seen a LR run a 1200 ptsfull TW w/ Lords, and a saga of majesty right off the table ( LD 10, re-rolling)

Hell i've even seen a WW bring down a full Dreadknight in CC

So I really don't care about what numbers are crunched, I only care about what actually happens out on the table

Fair enough, I take some supposedly "lackluster" units for the same reason, but if you're going to be running the same units enough that the averages will matter, then you can't beat the odds forever.

And yeah, I've seen some ridiculous things on the table, such as killing a Bloodthirster with a bolter when a meltagun bounces right off. Does that mean I should just kit everyone with bolters when I go Bloodthirster-hunting? No, I just beat the odds is all. On the flip side, my Carnifex got killed because my Zoanthropes blew up a Dreadnought that was beside him, which in turn wounded him and then he failed his armour save and lost his last wound - there was only a 2% chance of that happening. If I was in a similar situation, would I just let the Dreadnought roam free for fear of blowing up my Carnifex again? Obviously not, I'd trust the averages and hope that I don't get burned.

Yeah i'm done talking about this topic, all yall math boyz keep your calculators close, and i'll keep going out and winning tournaments with what I know works, take care.

Way to derail this thread guys...

FoD is pure gold. It'll work wonders on Nob Bikers as long as they don't have a warboss attached. Considerably the best way to get rid of arguably the best CC specialist in the game.

MFletch wrote:Start with one attack

2/3 to hit. wounds with 35/36 chance.

So any attack will kill a ork 35/56 probability.

See, there's your error.

2/3 to hit
5/6 or 30/36 to wound
(1/6 * 5/6) = 5/36 misses wound on a reroll
35/36 chance to wound

So any attack has a 2/3 * 35/36 = 70/108 = 64.8% chance to kill an ork.

Here is the math. I used .66 for the to hit rolls, and .83 for the to wound rolls.

4 Attacks
2.64 Hits
2.19 Wounds
.45 Rerolls
.37 Wounds
2.56 Total

2.56 Attacks
1.68 Hits
1.4 Wounds
.28 Rerolls
.23 Wounds
1.63 Total

1.63 Attacks
1.07 Hits
.89 Wounds
.18 Rerolls
.14 Wounds
1.03 Total

1.03 Attacks
.67 Hits
.55 Wounds
.12 Rerolls
.01 Wounds
.56 Total

2.56 Round 1
1.63 Round 2
1.03 Round 3
.56 Round 4

Assuming you win combat

6 No Retreat Saves
5 Kills

++Grand Total++

11

Damn, that's good.

J Mac wrote:Way to derail this thread guys...

FoD is pure gold. It'll work wonders on Nob Bikers as long as they don't have a warboss attached. Considerably the best way to get rid of arguably the best CC specialist in the game.

Nice, good to know. I am planning on kiting the libby with FoD just for the fun of it. The tourny really isnt going to be super competative and the entry fee is donated to a good cause.

Comment on the derailing: It never ceases to amuse me when people who do not have the slightest idea how statistics or mathematics work, or how to apply statistics and mathematics, act superior to those who do.

Comment on the original topic: Fear of the Dark (insert Iron Maiden reference here) is a great coup de grace to use on an ork unit that's weakened by some healthy application of firepower, but you can't or don't want to assault.

That is all.

Mustela wrote:Here is the math. I used .66 for the to hit rolls, and .83 for the to wound rolls.

If you ignore the rounding errors we basically got the same results. Nice to have some confirmation