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I have a terrain question, both involving walls/buildings.

I've had this happen twice in two tournaments in the last week and I wanted to know if my compass is wrong.

The issue is buildings and movement, which I know can be sticky, which is why I am asking.

Both times we declared a building/piece to be a "ruins". Which to me means difficult/dangerous. Both times players moved through what I would play as a solid wall, and would think they couldn't move through them but they claimed they could because they were "ruins". I am just in it for the fun of the game so I just said okay, but I wanted to come here and see if I am just wrong or if it's something cheeky.

My opponent had a unit of Nobs behind the wall in the picture and I didn't shoot at the units, because they were behind a wall and expected them to spill out the side (plus no LOS), but he came through the wall at me and charged into my lines. He said it was just a difficult terrain test. Is this okay?

I included a picture. Red lines are the building. Yellow is where he charged. Green is where I didn't shoot, no LOS. Blue is where I thought he would have to come out.

Thanks for the help!

With ruins, you are allowed to move through the solid walls, but only if both players agree (p83). They are also only difficult terrain by default, not dangerous (p82).

As with any terrain, you need to work out all those details with your opponent before the game begins.

Grakmar wrote:With ruins, you are allowed to move through the solid walls, but only if both players agree (p83). They are also only difficult terrain by default, not dangerous (p82).

As with any terrain, you need to work out all those details with your opponent before the game begins.

We had agreed they were ruins. So being ruins doesn't mean they can automatically be moved through?

It looks to me like you guys could have played it either way if you wanted to. If it were me I would have played it just like you guys did. No LoS meant no shooting the Orks, and the Orks smashing out through the wall to assault would require a difficult terrain test. All good.

The rulebook suggests that the two of you work that stuff out ahead of time (but how often do you think things like this ahead of time?).

Page 83 in the rulebook will have the info to help you decide.


edit: Blarg...ninja'd by Grak

Diarmid wrote:It looks to me like you guys could have played it either way if you wanted to.

The rules state you should discuss any detail of the terrain with your opponent to clear define what is difficult, dangerous or impassible terrain. Normally I play agreeing you are allowed to assault though building you there are windows/doors, if there is no LoS then I would say you can't. But again nothing on the rules says you can't do it both ways.

If you agreed they were Ruins, there's certain rules associated with that. One of those rules is that you can move through the walls.

rigeld2 wrote:If you agreed they were Ruins, there's certain rules associated with that. One of those rules is that you can move through the walls.

BGB p83 Walls, doors, ladders and lateral thinking:
"Should troops be able to move through walls if there is no door? That's really down to what you and your opponent decide. <Fluff> the normal rules for moving through difficult terrain allow you to do just this. Equally you could decide that models can only pass from one side of a wall to the other if they walk around, or if there is a door, window, grate or similar handy opening."


So, this is an issue you need to decide with your opponent.

"the normal rules for moving through difficult terrain allow you to do just this"

If you dont decide they are anything other than ruins, then BY DEFAULT you can move straight through walls.

It's an issue you can force in competitive play, although the way I've usually seen it is that true line of sight (walls) block shooting attacks, and you can Kool-Aid your way through them with a difficult terrain check. I always try and clarify before the game starts if it is a tourney game. Otherwise, it gets a little tricky.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"the normal rules for moving through difficult terrain allow you to do just this"

If you dont decide they are anything other than ruins, then BY DEFAULT you can move straight through walls.

This right here. Read the rules regarding difficult terrain on page 14, second column, first paragraph. Unless decided upon otherwise, you can move through solid obstacles if it is classified as difficult terrain (as ruins are).

You also do not need line of sight to assault so yes, the nobz in the OP example can take a difficult terrian test, go through the solid wall of the ruins, and assault the chimera. Perfectly legal unless the tournament rules specified otherwise.

Jimsolo wrote:...and you can Kool-Aid your way through them with a difficult terrain check...

OH YEAH!

spireland wrote:

Grakmar wrote:With ruins, you are allowed to move through the solid walls, but only if both players agree (p83). They are also only difficult terrain by default, not dangerous (p82).

As with any terrain, you need to work out all those details with your opponent before the game begins.

We had agreed they were ruins. So being ruins doesn't mean they can automatically be moved through?

The more common way people play ruins is with melting through walls, however you should discuss and define all the terrain features with your opponent before the game to make sure you're both on the same page. Make sure to discuss terrain you define as ruins in detail, I'd suggest reading pg 83 "walls, doors, ladders and lateral thinking".

Ruins are defined. BY DEFAULT you can move through all solid parts of ruins as if it was difficult terrain.

Ruins do not have doors, walls or windows, buildings do. Ruins have door-like holes, Wall-like debris and window-like openings... All which function as difficult terrain.

Now if you and your opponent decide that ruins function like buildings and then set rules for each and every part of those buildings, then yes... they cannot move through them.

If everything on that table is 'ruins' then they can walk through, drive through and assault through any and all terrain on that table by default. BGB p83 Walls, doors, ladders and lateral thinking doesn't override or redefine ruins... It allows you to change ruins into buildings and change the default rules.

You cannot shoot if you have no LOS, but he can assault... that is totally correct.

We're not gonna do this by default stuff again are we?

Look, ruins have 4 pages of rules, you can pretend that area terrain somehow has intrinsic rules for how to climb or resolve a combat without being in base to base contact... but you're fooling yourself. Show me in the rulebook the part that says you don't need to discuss or define terrain because everything will just default to something... and then I'll show you the 7-8 times GW stresses you and your opponent should be on the same page BEFORE you start playing.

Do yourself a favor people, talk about terrain before the game, ask questions, be specific, be on the same page. Because if you don't there will be those guys who insist how they usually play terrain is MORE correct than how you usually play and their assumptions are more accurate than yours.

Crablezworth wrote:Show me in the rulebook the part that says you don't need to discuss or define terrain because everything will just default to something... and then I'll show you the 7-8 times GW stresses you and your opponent should be on the same page BEFORE you start playing.

You're missing the point, though, which is that if you don't discuss it before the game, the rules in this case have a 'default setting'...

Yes, you certainly should discuss how to play it before the game. But if you don't, the fairest option when it comes to a point in the game where it actually makes a difference is to just go with the default rules.

Crable - and, like the other thread you seem to think people havent defined terrain. They have. They said they were ruins, and stopped discussing them - which leaves you with a default set of rules for ruins.

It even says this in the rules, you just keep ignoring and insisting something else has occured. The OP, like the other OP in the other thread, had defined the ruins as exactly that - Ruins. These come with a set of default rules. If you dont like that, then tell GW and maybe theyll listen for 6th ed.

I am sure I remember the rule book or FAQ expressly saying that units may move through walls as long as they take a difficult terrain test. The test implies the units in question are bashing down doors/ walls climbing through windows and such.

It is on pg 14 of the rule book.
Similarly ruins are declared on pg 13 as difficult terrain.

As such, as long as the player does the difficult terrain test, he can move through walls. (If you wish for ruin walls to be considered impassible terrain you must declare that at the beginning of the game. as recommended on Pg 13)