Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Has anyone come across any official pronouncements on Ultramar's policy towards psychics? Ultramar does not pay the tithe, which opens speculation on whether they allow Black Ships to visit, or whether they have their own program for psychics, given that they are the last real fragment of the secular pre-Heresy Imperium. Thoughts and speculation welcome, but quotes from GW source material especially valued.

I'm pretty sure the Black Ships are a separate orginization from the Imperial Tithe, and even Chapter Homeworlds send their Psykers in.

Obviously, the Ultramarines would have the first pick; the strongest are recruited to become Librarians
Then the Ultraguard get their picks, choosing Sanctioned Psykers
After that comes the Astropaths and other Psyker Professions
The rest are shipped to Terra

Two different things here: the tithe, and the various people who receive it. "The Tithe" is all things paid by worlds of the Imperium as part of their feudal contract, be it materials, Imperial Guard regiments, or psychics. Each of those things are collected by the appropriate organisation. The Inquisition, the Sisters of Silence and agents from the Scholastica Psykana do collectively operate the Black Ships, rather than the Administratum agents or sector military forces that collect other payments.

However, Ultramar does not owe or pay any tithe to the Imperium. It (and as I understand it, all Astartes Chapters) are sovereign nations, essentially, allied to the Imperium by treaty and their mutual allegiance to the Emperor, but entirely under their own laws. For example, they do not recognise the authority of the Ecclesiarchy, or the validity of the Lectio Divinatus and it's doctrine of the Emperor's divinity either.

Some or all of the Chapters may choose to send the psychics from their Chapter worlds to the Black Ships anyway. That is certainly a possibility. And some Chapters choose to recruit from worlds they do not rule, as with the Imperial Fists recruiting from Terra. But Ultramar doesn't have to give anybody anything. The question is, do they want to, or think they ought to?

Sanctus Ferri wrote:Some or all of the Chapters may choose to send the psychics from their Chapter worlds to the Black Ships anyway. That is certainly a possibility. But Ultramar doesn't have to give anybody anything. The question is, do they want to, or think they ought to?

One duty of an Imperial Governor is to keep witchcraft under check, isn't it? And human populations produce psykers with increasing frequency as the years pass. So unless the Ultramarines purge psykers they'll eventually have too many. What better way to keep things in control than to call the Black Ships from time to time? Besides, aren't Astropaths and the like trained in central locations under the Imperial authorities? Ultramar is important enough that they'll be assigned astropaths but if they don't send fresh candidates I'm sure there will be questions. No psykers from Ultramar... a sure sign something is wrong.

Makes the idyllic, peaceful realm seem bit less so when one thinks of people being dragged away in the night so the rest may live peacefully. ;-)

Spetulhu wrote:

Sanctus Ferri wrote:Some or all of the Chapters may choose to send the psychics from their Chapter worlds to the Black Ships anyway. That is certainly a possibility. But Ultramar doesn't have to give anybody anything. The question is, do they want to, or think they ought to?

One duty of an Imperial Governor is to keep witchcraft under check, isn't it? And human populations produce psykers with increasing frequency as the years pass. So unless the Ultramarines purge psykers they'll eventually have too many. What better way to keep things in control than to call the Black Ships from time to time? Besides, aren't Astropaths and the like trained in central locations under the Imperial authorities? Ultramar is important enough that they'll be assigned astropaths but if they don't send fresh candidates I'm sure there will be questions. No psykers from Ultramar... a sure sign something is wrong.

Makes the idyllic, peaceful realm seem bit less so when one thinks of people being dragged away in the night so the rest may live peacefully. ;-)

You are forgetting all fluff about Space Marines and all fluff about Ultramar.

Psykers do not get born in exponental numbers unless chaos is involved, they are just produced to the normal level of chance on most worlds. Ultramar as a sector is the greatest example of what human society should be, they don't have witchhunts as the population know about the useful aspects to psykers and anyone believed to be a psykers would most likely offer themselves to imperial service.

Also psykers are extremely rare on most worlds, due to this most will be found by the Librarians of the Ultramarines looking for recruits, any that are unfit for recruiting would probably be sent to Terra for testing on passing Black Ships as that is the most logical (i.e. most Ultramarine) thing to do.

Also 'No psykers from Ultramar... a sure sign something is wrong.' is pretty meaningless because at the end of the day unless Calgar goes Horus on the IoM no power body within the IoM would support an inquisitors attempt to excommunicate them (as in doing so would create a civil war probably bigger than the Horus Heresy).


Ultramar is an exception to the rule however (this is seen in many debates were the Ulramarines are used as examples) most chapters have their recruitment worlds on feral or barbaric worlds (they have the least us to the IoM and give the best candidates) on these worlds psykers are rarer than usual as most end up being killed by locals. Also most chapters would take offence to anyone entering their system and demanding stuff, including Black Ships.

It is the duty of every imperial commander to turn their psykers to the Black Ships.
Partial autonomy or not, even a spacemarine has to comply to some imperial laws.
The one exception i can see is that the various chapters have the right to recruit promising psykers without
sending them to the adeptus astra telepathica first.

KingDeath wrote:It is the duty of every imperial commander to turn their psykers to the Black Ships.
Partial autonomy or not, even a spacemarine has to comply to some imperial laws.
The one exception i can see is that the various chapters have the right to recruit promising psykers without
sending them to the adeptus astra telepathica first.

Chapter Worlds are sovereign nations within the IoM they do not pay tribute or tithe to any body within the IoM apart from the Geneseed tithe, this is clearly shown in fluff.

BluntmanDC wrote:

KingDeath wrote:It is the duty of every imperial commander to turn their psykers to the Black Ships.
Partial autonomy or not, even a spacemarine has to comply to some imperial laws.
The one exception i can see is that the various chapters have the right to recruit promising psykers without
sending them to the adeptus astra telepathica first.

Chapter Worlds are sovereign nations within the IoM they do not pay tribute or tithe to any body within the IoM apart from the Geneseed tithe, this is clearly shown in fluff.

They don't have full sovereignity only partial autonomy which is shown by the fact that each chapter still has to accept the rule of the Highlords and the Inquisition.

KingDeath wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

KingDeath wrote:It is the duty of every imperial commander to turn their psykers to the Black Ships.
Partial autonomy or not, even a spacemarine has to comply to some imperial laws.
The one exception i can see is that the various chapters have the right to recruit promising psykers without
sending them to the adeptus astra telepathica first.

Chapter Worlds are sovereign nations within the IoM they do not pay tribute or tithe to any body within the IoM apart from the Geneseed tithe, this is clearly shown in fluff.

They don't have full sovereignity only partial autonomy which is shown by the fact that each chapter still has to accept the rule of the Highlords and the Inquisition.

They don't have to accept the rule of the High Lords or the Inquisition. What they have is treaties between nation states pledging that they will support the defence of the Imperium, but only as they (the Chapters) themselves see fit, to support the military operations of Imperial Commanders as the Chapters see fit, and to generally give Inquisitors the benefit of the doubt and support their requests for aid almost universally due to the dire potential of the threat, with the provision, in turn, the the Inquisition only call on them when they really need it. All of the support rendered is because the Chapters believe that is what they were made to do. That is the Emperor's mandate, which they uphold by honour and devotion, not constraint.

Ultramarines will, as pointed out above, do whatever is the right "Ultramarine" thing to do. That may be to send the psychics to Black Ships. Or not. I can see arguments supporting either, hence my search for the truth here. It really all depends to me on how much current practice does (or doesn't) deviate from established practice under the active Emperor, and any future revisions of that policy postulated and communicated by the Emperor to Guilliman.

Uncontrolled Psychics would be a huge threat to Ultramar, Daemonic incursions and mass devastation would be an inevitability. Only the Adeptus Astra Telepathica can properly deal with the psyker threat. Ultramar gives them over just as anywhere else for the safety of everyone

In addition, even if Ultramar didn't do the above then they'd face a lot of problems with the Adeptus Terra/Ecclesiarchy/Inquisition.

Ultramar isn't truly autonomous from the Imperium, without it it would crumble and it is not free from the authority of the High Lords of Terra. It just enjoys far greater autonomy then most Imperial entities.

Uncontrolled Psykers are a threat everywhere; why should the Smurfs treat them different from anyone else?

Harriticus wrote:Uncontrolled Psychics would be a huge threat to Ultramar, Daemonic incursions and mass devastation would be an inevitability. Only the Adeptus Astra Telepathica can properly deal with the psyker threat. Ultramar gives them over just as anywhere else for the safety of everyone

Yes, it stand to reason that Ultramar does something with them. That might mean giving them to the Black Ships. Or they might have some sanctioning program of their own, primarily benefiting the Chapter, the UDA and the local Inquisitorial fortress world, for example. But have you actually come across a GW reference that points to anything solid?

In addition, even if Ultramar didn't do the above then they'd face a lot of problems with the Adeptus Terra/Ecclesiarchy/Inquisition.

Ultramar isn't truly autonomous from the Imperium, without it it would crumble and it is not free from the authority of the High Lords of Terra. It just enjoys far greater autonomy then most Imperial entities.

Really? How aren't they autonomous? What exactly would the Adeptus Terra/Ecclesiarchy/Inquisition do if they weren't pleased with Ultramar's actions? As it stands, the Ecclesiarchy is highly displeased with the Astartes 'heretical' view of the Emperor as great but not divine. But what exactly do they do about that? Oh, wait, not a damn thing, because they can't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Uncontrolled Psykers are a threat everywhere; why should the Smurfs treat them different from anyone else?

Well, the Ultramarines might do something different because:

They might feel that the program on Terra is not the most effective way to prepare for psychics as the future of humanity as the Emperor envisioned (assuming the Emperor shared this vision with Guilliman), and therefore set up some more efficient program, that was less wasteful.

Or they might do that just because they hate waste and inefficiency.

Or they might do that because they seem to care a bit more about their people than is the norm in the Imperium, and this might eliminate the potential for trouble from rogue psychics who evaded the ships, or from sympathetic family or such.

Or for any combination of the above.

Harriticus wrote:Ultramar isn't truly autonomous from the Imperium, without it it would crumble and it is not free from the authority of the High Lords of Terra. It just enjoys far greater autonomy then most Imperial entities.

So you have never read any Ultramarines fluff. Ultramar is a self sufficient area of space with each planet playing its whole, it has no need for trade outside of Ultramar but does so because it over produces. It is common beleif that if the IoM were to fall Ultramar would be fine.

It has the same level of autonamy as Mars.

Just chiming in backing those supporting autonomy. Even the inquisition and lords of terra don't have official control of the adeptus astartes. Technically chapters are sovereign allied nations within the imperium able to accept or refuse requests at wish. The adeptus mechanus is in the same situation, an allied nation within the bounds of the imperium that can choose when and how to support them.

Many of the major powers of the imperium are set up this way: Rogue Traders, Inquisitors, navigators, ad-mech, adeptus astartes.

However, as with all politics in the imperil, the reality of this is dependent on any individuals or organizations actual power. A young or uninfluential chapter does not have enough power to stand up against an inquisitor who decides they don't like the cut of their jib. Likewise they need to keep the ad-mech happy as well as the navigator guilds.

Established chapters like the Ultramarines can largely do whatever they want. Unless they pull a Horus no other faction in the Imperium can afford to gainsay them.

Is it known if in Ultramar the normal population follow the Imperial Truth or the Imperial Creed ? I'm guessing the former since they are ruled by the Astartes, and one of the original legion non the less, I don't see why they would go against what the Emperor wanted for humanity. Any official word on this tho ?

I think the word on that is the Imperial Truth due to them being an original legion who gets gak done