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HQ 140 Emp Champ + AAC
HQ 100 Marshal + Storm Shield + OoA (Army-wide Ld 10)

Troop 504pts
3x8xInitiates + Melta + Drop Pod

Elite 810pts
3x5xTerminators + Chain Fist + 2xCyclone MLs + Tank Hunters

Fast 205pts
2x1xTyphoon ML Land Speeder
1xMM Land Speeder

Heavy 240pts
2x Dakka Preds
---------------------------------
1999


The idea is to use the PA marines to grab objectives and only use their melta as an alpha attack in the most dire circumstances. Basically pod onto objectives and hunker down.

The rest of the army gets broken up into either 2-3 independent tactile groups or a mobile castle.

C&C welcome

I am assuming you know the drop pod rules for BT are medieval.

As such how about reserving everything and giving potms to your preds. So on average 50% comes on in turn 2 and starts shooting.

The old rules mean regular reserve rules, right? I had forgotten that but I think it may be better to set up later game objective grabs. After speaking with a friend I am giving up many free kill points. So I could leave off all the pods and reserve the troops. The points saved could flesh out the units with more bodies.

PotMS on the Preds is an idea. What is the most point efficient build for the preds in the BT dex? Since there are so many S9 missile in this list I was looking at the Pred for anti-infantry. But considering a BA dakka pred is only 100 points and fast, I do not want to pay 120 for a regular pred without goodies or even more for the PotMS which acts in a similar manner as Fast.

Looks solid for a pod list(though BT have some limitations from old "Drop Pod Assault").

I wouldn't bother with POTMS on a dakka pred(annihilator is another story), you won't be able to fire all the weps after moving 6. 30 pts to fire an AC after moving 12 ehhhhhhhhh, 30 pts to fire a HB after moving 6 ehhhhhh.

A few issues have arisen. In looking around the internet I found that my concept has been covered nearly to a "T" by Kirby & his 3++ team.

According to what I read, Dakka Preds are 10 points cheaper than I had come up with. It's a scary day when I cannot do simple arithmetic so I will double check this but if Kirby is right they are only 110 pts each which frees up much needed 20 points. >> 1979. I now can get wargear I actually want on the Marshal so the Orb goes too. >> 1969.

Next, the drop pods. So I chose the drop pods for a few reasons. One, they are a bargain. Two, they can accurately deliver melta. Three, they effectively delay my fragile scoring units. The negatives are obvious however. First, they are easy kill points. Second, they are unreliable with the old reserve rules. Last, 8 3+ marines cannot effectively hold an objective and delaying their entry two turns really does not help the matter much. So, after balancing the factors above, I think they need to go. 90 points saved >> 1879.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HQ 140 Emp Champ + AAC
HQ 90 Marshal + Storm Shield (Army-wide Ld 10)

Troop 414pts
3x8xInitiates + Melta

Elite 810pts
3x5xTerminators + Chain Fist + 2xCyclone MLs + Tank Hunters

Fast 205pts
2x1xTyphoon ML Land Speeder
1xMM Land Speeder

Heavy 220pts
2x Dakka Preds


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moving forward I want to gear up the Marshal. I'm thinking Artificer Armor and a combi melta. Since my work comp doesn't have the PDF Dex I am going to ballpark the points for now. I will assume that is 25 points worth of wargear (20 for the AA).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
That leaves 95 points to fix/alter the troops. This is whre I am lost. Suggestions?

I would give your troops either rhinos or razorback as foot slogging isn't fun. The best value money I think is the lazorback, so that gives 5 man squads which you can lascannon and plasma up.

MFletch wrote:I would give your troops either rhinos or razorback as foot slogging isn't fun. The best value money I think is the lazorback, so that gives 5 man squads which you can lascannon and plasma up.

Lazerbacks? Best value for money in BT? 90pts is awful for a lazerback. Go with a Lascannon/Plasma gun squad of just 5 Initiates in Rhinos. The idea is that they don't move unless they have to inorder to claim objectives. Otherwise stay still and shoot your opponent.

Akroma06 wrote:

MFletch wrote:I would give your troops either rhinos or razorback as foot slogging isn't fun. The best value money I think is the lazorback, so that gives 5 man squads which you can lascannon and plasma up.

Lazerbacks? Best value for money in BT? 90pts is awful for a lazerback. Go with a Lascannon/Plasma gun squad of just 5 Initiates in Rhinos. The idea is that they don't move unless they have to inorder to claim objectives. Otherwise stay still and shoot your opponent.

I feel the need just to quote prices

Rhino
SM 35 BA 50(without search light) SW 35 Chaos 35 DA 35 BT 50(without searchlight and smokeless) GK 40(can not die)
Lazerback
SM 75 BA 90(without search light) SW 75 DA 80 BT 90(without searchlight and smokeless) GK 80(can not die)

Now we both want to spend 15 points more than vanilla. As percentage more you choice is worse. Also I reckon you'll want to spend 3 pts on smoke whereas I am saving my money.
True if you want to sit the squad in a tank, not move and shoot a lascannon then it would cheaper - less likely to hit and immobile but sure cheaper.

I fail to see how me adding smoke makes a difference. If it goes on the rhino or the razorback its the same cost. My point was that the difference between a las/plas squad in a rhino is cheaper than a lazerback. I can also put out more shots while keeping my squads safe. As opposed to vanilla marines where half of them are on foot.
Either way back OT. I don't like pods for templars as they don't come in reliably so some changes I would make:


HQ 140 Emp Champ + AAC
Always good
HQ 90 Marshal + Storm Shield (Army-wide Ld 10)
I'd add a mantle, LC, and arificer armor

Troop 414pts
3x8xInitiates + Melta
What do the others have? BP/CCW or Bolters? In objective games you would struggle since these guys have no protection. The may pop a trasnport but then they just sit there. With no troops you can't claim objectives. I'd give 'em rhinos, with las plas, see my above arguments as to why

Elite 810pts
3x5xTerminators + Chain Fist + 2xCyclone MLs + Tank Hunters
I'd drop the Chain Fists as it is just a waste of points since the CML should be enough

Fast 205pts
2x1xTyphoon ML Land Speeder
1xMM Land Speeder
I'd go with Typhoons/HB across the board. They are stupid cheap and put out enough firepower by themselves. MM require you to get that LS really close.

Heavy 220pts
2x Dakka Preds
I'd wait on these guys until the troops get squared away. You really want at least 4 scoring units at 2K. When you do go with preds. I give them Lascannon sponsons and the TL LC, PotMS. Otherwise I go with 3 Vindicators with PotMS and EA.

SS, mantle, and artificer armor? Isn't the mantle redundant? Maybe I am mistaken as to what it does.

Also a LC? I am not really impressed by the marshals CC stats. And since he already has preferred enemy wouldn't a power weapon be a better choice?

The chain fist stays as insurance against a tank shocking LR. For 5 points it is worth it.

Let's look at fast next. Obviously the typhoons are a great value but the lack of Melta worries me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regarding the vehicle upgrades I also disagree On most choices. Cover will be granted by the term screen. Potms is too expensive. If I want full dakka I'll just stay still that movement phase.

Now back to the darn troops. I see what everyone is saying and I just cannot decide. I'm leaning toward las/plas 5 man squads on foot. 50 points for a metal box is serious. Maybe I'll take two simply for blocking and tactical reasons. Thoughts?

Deuce11 wrote:SS, mantle, and artificer armor? Isn't the mantle redundant? Maybe I am mistaken as to what it does.

The Mantle provides protection against Instant Death, but only from Instant Death caused by attacks that are twice the Marshal's toughness.

Also a LC? I am not really impressed by the marshals CC stats. And since he already has preferred enemy wouldn't a power weapon be a better choice?

No. The Preferred Enemy lets you reroll to hit, the Lightning Claw lets you reroll to wound.

As for his stats...he's a Vanilla captain with one less WS, a deficiency that's largely irrelevant with AACNMTO. Draigo or the Sanguinor he's not, but he's not terrible.

LIST UPDATE and I am starting to like it.

HQ
Emp Champ + AAC
Marshal + Storm Shield + Artificer Armor + Power weapon OR Combi-melta (Army-wide Ld 10)

Troop
2x5xInitiates with ML, Melta and Rhino
2x5xInitiates with ML and Melta

Elite
2x5xTerminators + Chain Fist + 2xCyclone MLs + Tank Hunters
1x5xTerminators + 2xCyclone MLs + Tank Hunters

Fast
2x1xTyphoon ML Land Speeder
1xMM Land Speeder

Heavy
2x Dakka Preds
---------------------------
1995

Lots of dakka going on. Four troops for objective camping. Army wide Ld 10 and preferred enemy.

Any more changes? C&C?

EDIT: I really wanted defence from tank shocks and podding CC dreads so I put meltas on the Initiate squads and made room by swapping Las for ML. I know have an even 5 points which allows me to either upgrade the MM Speeder to a typhoon or I could drop the marshall as discussed below for an additional Pred and some more points to play with.

I would suggest trying to squeeze in that lightning claw on your marshal. Re-rolling to-hit and to-wound rolls is pretty awesome.

Though, I do have a question, what do you plan on using your Marshal and Champion for? You are a pure shooting list, with two close combat HQs?

I might look into moving some things around, because the only use I can see for those two is as a counter-charge unit, and they won't be enough to deter anyone from eating the Crusader squads. Either that, or drop the marshal for another pred, and use the terminators as a bubblewrap around all three of those nasty tanks.

The terms are bubble wrap. The marshal is there for ld 10 basically. You think that is a waste?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dropping the marshal gives me that third pred.

Edits above.

Deuce11 wrote:
LIST UPDATE and I am starting to like it.

HQ
Emp Champ + AAC
Marshal + Storm Shield + Artificer Armor + Power weapon OR Combi-melta (Army-wide Ld 10)

I would seriously try and get a mantle/LC. Reroll to wound and hit is sweet. The mantle protects you from a PF in CC or a Demolisher shot.

Deuce11 wrote:
Troop
2x5xInitiates with ML, Melta and Rhino
2x5xInitiates with ML and Melta

I'd seriously thing about doing Las/Plas on these squads. The Lascannons can take care of armor and the plasma will make terminators think twice about getting too close. If you are worried about tanks shock and want to stop it use the Lascannon.

Deuce11 wrote:
Elite
2x5xTerminators + Chain Fist + 2xCyclone MLs + Tank Hunters
1x5xTerminators + 2xCyclone MLs + Tank Hunters

I'd drop the Chain Fists. These guys should be pretty far from the action so it isn't worth it. Either way I don't think 2d6 is necessary on rear armor when striking with S8 plus one from TH.

Deuce11 wrote:
Fast
2x1xTyphoon ML Land Speeder
1xMM Land Speeder

Typhoons are amazing with the BT as they are so cheap.

Deuce11 wrote:
Heavy
2x Dakka Preds
---------------------------
1995
Lots of dakka going on. Four troops for objective camping. Army wide Ld 10 and preferred enemy.

Any more changes? C&C?

If you are objective camping get everyone a steel box. It isn't much but it is better than nothing. The Ld 10 isn't all that neccesary if you are hiding your guys right. PE is also kinda meh since you are avoiding CC with this list. Don't get me wrong they are both amazingly good and worth their points its just that in a shooty list why use 2 CC models. I'd only take the Marshall once all slots are filled and you want more CML termis.

Yeah i am starting to seriously consider dropping the Marshl altogether. HOwever I really dislike paying 50 pts per rhino. I think 2 for either LOs blocking or driving up real fast to redeploy a unit is all I really need. Bottom line is I need to play test to really see how it all plays.

Re. the melta in the Initiate squads, I worry most about Armor 13 dreads.

The Marshal is very useful for a BT army seeing as how we don't have sargeants.

Zzzzzz. My BT army list goes something like this (I have two versions the 'fun' assault based one and the more competitive shooting list.

Emperor's Champion(AAC) =140

6 Assault Terminators(2w/TH/SS, LCs, FC, Land Raider Crusader, BlessedHull) =538

9 Initiates(Meltagun, PwrFist, Rhino w/ SmokeLauncher) =222

9 Initiates(Meltagun, PwrFist, Rhino w/ SmokeLauncher) =222

9 Initiates(Meltagun, PwrFist, Rhino w/ SmokeLauncher) =222

9 Initiates(Meltagun, PwrFist, Rhino w/ SmokeLauncher) =222

Predator Annihilator(LC-Sponsons) =145

Predator Annihilator(LC-Sponsons) =145

Predator Annihilator(LC-Sponsons) =145

===========================

Emperor's Champion(ATWDTW) = 110

5 Initiates(PlasmaGun, Lascannon) w/ Rhino = 151

5 Initiates(PlasmaGun, Lascannon) w/ Rhino = 151

5 Initiates(PlasmaGun, Lascannon) w/ Rhino = 151

5 Initiates(PlasmaGun, Lascannon) w/ Rhino = 151

5 Initiates(PlasmaGun, Lascannon) w/ Rhino = 151

Predator Annihilator(Sponson Lascannons) = 145

Predator Destructor(Sponson Lascannons) = 125

Predator Destructor(Sponson Lascannons) = 125

Land Speeder Typhoon = 70

Land Speeder Typhoon = 70

Land Speeder Typhoon = 70

5 Terminators(2w/ CMLs, Tank Hunters) = 265

5 Terminators(2w/ CMLs, Tank Hunters) = 265

Achilles: Do you want me to learn something from your lists?

Without the Marshal the list looks like this:

HQ
Emp Champ + AAC

Troop
2x5xInitiates + Melta + ML + Rhino + Smoke Launchers
2x5xInitiates + Melta + ML

Elite
3x5xTerminators + Chain Fist + 2xCyclone MLs + Tank Hunters

Fast
3x1xTyphoon ML/HB Land Speeder

Heavy
3x Dakka Preds + Searchlight
--------------------------
1999

What glaring weaknesses do you see?

Achilles' lists are pretty much the way to run BT, either very CC or very shooty. As your going for a shooty list, I'd start with that list for him. Those Ironclad Dreads should get nowhere near your lines especially with the preds, typhoons, TH termis. The Melta/ML may work great for C:SM but not for us. Las/Plas is the way for it to work. Honestly I'd drop a squad of terminators to get rhinos for the Initiates and change the guns. You have enough ML from the termis and the typhoons. Melta doesn't work with the missle either as you are mixing long and short range in the same squad. Las/Plas can be effective at long range with the LC, short range with a rapid firing PG and Bolters, and mid range with a LC and rapid firing PG.

Akroma06 wrote:Achilles' lists are pretty much the way to run BT, either very CC or very shooty. As your going for a shooty list, I'd start with that list for him. Those Ironclad Dreads should get nowhere near your lines especially with the preds, typhoons, TH termis. The Melta/ML may work great for C:SM but not for us. Las/Plas is the way for it to work. Honestly I'd drop a squad of terminators to get rhinos for the Initiates and change the guns. You have enough ML from the termis and the typhoons. Melta doesn't work with the missle either as you are mixing long and short range in the same squad. Las/Plas can be effective at long range with the LC, short range with a rapid firing PG and Bolters, and mid range with a LC and rapid firing PG.

Then entertain a few thoughts for a moment.

With small units such as the min/maxed initiate squads why would you risk dying from Gets Hot for one extra shot? Also there is no difference in long vs. short range effectiveness when comparing the mix of ML/special to LC/special. The effect is exactly the same.

Now, maybe it has to do with my local meta but drop podding armor 13 dreads is common. Remember those things called blood claws that rape unlucky long fangs squads? Well I want some melta insurance for that.

As for CC vs Shooty, My list is very very similar to Achilles shooty list. A difference of possibly the Emp Champ rules. But honestly how do you pass up army-wide preferred enemy for 40 points? It seems like a no brainer.

In regards to dropping the third Termi unit. I have thought about it and am still undecided but am leaning toward keeping it. The BT idea started as a Terminator bubble list protecting the gunline. then i realized the cost disadvantage of the transports and I moved away from armor saturation. As it is I am basically conceding a likely loss against LR spam. i'd rather have the 4 additional relentless S9 krak missiles then fill the list with more static LCs in AV11.

In the end the difference between 4x5 Initiate squads with LC/Plas and ML/Melta is 4 points. That is one chain fist which everyone seems to think is a waste. Easy swap to make. I may even go two and two. That way the plasmas move forward while the melta sits back or vice versa depending on what my opponent fields.


To briefly tackle the lists posted by Achilles. Thank you for posting them. This thread is now a one stop shop for contemporary BT net builds.
However I am really not a fan of the CC oriented one. The reason is simple and three fold. First Single Landraider lists rarely work for obvious reasons, they are the primary target for the first two turns of shooting with all ordinance/barrage and alpha striking melta. Second, the strategy is too obvious and there is no reliable way to deviate, rush forward and roll dice. Third, every 5th ed marine dex can do it better.
The Shooty list is so similar to my own that only play testing can really discern which is "better."

Deuce11 wrote:
Then entertain a few thoughts for a moment.

With small units such as the min/maxed initiate squads why would you risk dying from Gets Hot for one extra shot? Also there is no difference in long vs. short range effectiveness when comparing the mix of ML/special to LC/special. The effect is exactly the same.

What I meant was you can shoot the LC and the PG at 24" make a series of the 24" bubbles to deny your opponents part of the board or risk your wrath. Meltas have to get within 6" to be effective against armor. So you are moving the whole time and the ML does nothing. That was my point on range effectiveness. That one dice roll to get hot is extremly slim on a marine with a PG. It seems to happen alot because people focus on the bad. But a 1/6 chance of getting hot followed by a 1/3 chance to die. Means you have a slim chance of dying to gets hot.

Deuce11 wrote:
Now, maybe it has to do with my local meta but drop podding armor 13 dreads is common. Remember those things called blood claws that rape unlucky long fangs squads? Well I want some melta insurance for that.

I can't really argue your local meta

Deuce11 wrote:
As for CC vs Shooty, My list is very very similar to Achilles shooty list. A difference of possibly the Emp Champ rules. But honestly how do you pass up army-wide preferred enemy for 40 points? It seems like a no brainer.

No I understand it is amazing for the cost. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying just realize that there is another viable option out there especially with the GK everywhere.

Deuce11 wrote:
In regards to dropping the third Termi unit. I have thought about it and am still undecided but am leaning toward keeping it. The BT idea started as a Terminator bubble list protecting the gunline. then i realized the cost disadvantage of the transports and I moved away from armor saturation. As it is I am basically conceding a likely loss against LR spam. i'd rather have the 4 additional relentless S9 krak missiles then fill the list with more static LCs in AV11.

My point was you need troops. 2/3 games involve objectives meaning you need troops and that is the easiest way to get the points.

Deuce11 wrote:
In the end the difference between 4x5 Initiate squads with LC/Plas and ML/Melta is 4 points. That is one chain fist which everyone seems to think is a waste. Easy swap to make. I may even go two and two. That way the plasmas move forward while the melta sits back or vice versa depending on what my opponent fields.

Chain fists are a waste as much as rending is a waste on a monstorous creature. You are already S8 + 1 for TH against rear armor do you really need 2d6 armor pen? Las/Plas works because you can put out 3 shots of ap2 at longer range as opposed to one ap3 at long range and 1 ap1 shot at short range.

Deuce11 wrote:
To briefly tackle the lists posted by Achilles. Thank you for posting them. This thread is now a one stop shop for contemporary BT net builds.
However I am really not a fan of the CC oriented one. The reason is simple and three fold. First Single Landraider lists rarely work for obvious reasons, they are the primary target for the first two turns of shooting with all ordinance/barrage and alpha striking melta. Second, the strategy is too obvious and there is no reliable way to deviate, rush forward and roll dice. Third, every 5th ed marine dex can do it better.
The Shooty list is so similar to my own that only play testing can really discern which is "better."

I've run CC lists with two LR. How can every 5th ed marine dex do assault better. DA? They have balance great but I go 1st with FC and reroll to hit and wound. GK? So you have power weapons, short of halberds its the same as against DA. SW? What can stop the afforementioned I5 guys with reroll to hit and wound at S5? C:SM? What do they have that is good in CC besides tooled up vanguard or honor guard that costs way to much? Their basic tac squads may have one more Ld and Attack on the sarge but all of ours can have BP/CCW with rerolls, again the vote goes to BT.
You can't charge blindly forward. If you run two LR with termis they won't have enough to bring them both down until you have crossed the board. I believe Nettik made a 2500 list with 7 LRs.

Akroma06 wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:
Then entertain a few thoughts for a moment.

With small units such as the min/maxed initiate squads why would you risk dying from Gets Hot for one extra shot? Also there is no difference in long vs. short range effectiveness when comparing the mix of ML/special to LC/special. The effect is exactly the same.

What I meant was you can shoot the LC and the PG at 24" make a series of the 24" bubbles to deny your opponents part of the board or risk your wrath. Meltas have to get within 6" to be effective against armor. So you are moving the whole time and the ML does nothing. That was my point on range effectiveness. That one dice roll to get hot is extremly slim on a marine with a PG. It seems to happen alot because people focus on the bad. But a 1/6 chance of getting hot followed by a 1/3 chance to die. Means you have a slim chance of dying to gets hot.