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So, I put up a query about doing a small guard army and didn't get much of a response, so I decided to try a test list, with plenty of room for flexibility (currently spent 1230 of a 1,500 pt army). Mostly, I'm looking for a decently flexible and smallish Guard army, preferably with two storm trooper units and some mechanized stuff, and at most one platoon (I don't want to throw gobs of cash at fodder troops if I can avoid it). I'm not interested in abhumans, but most other things are dandy. I'm also thinking that I'd like it fairly mobile, with heavy weapons either in support squads or on vehicles. I'm not looking for tournament competition, basically just don't want to have my lovingly crafted army hit the field for the first time and get eaten alive because I didn't understand how to build it.

So, please, let me know if this makes any sort of sense, and, if not, what you would suggest. Note that I haven't played 5th edition yet, and used to mostly play Lost and the Damned, so I don't have a lot of knowledge of how the game has shifted.

Thanks in advance for any help

Company CMD 95
-CMDR: Power weapon
-Regimental Std, 2 meltas
advisors? the ordinance guy seems good
commisar?
Chimera?

Storm Troopers 195
10, Grenade Launcher, Flamer, power weapon

Storm Troopers 195
10, Grenade Launcher, Flamer, power weapon

Chimera 65
-extra armor

Veteran Squad 100
-shot guns, heavy flamer, power weapon
-doctrine?
-carapace armor?

Veteran Squad 100
-3 meltas

Chimera 65
-extra armor

Valkyrie (for storm troopers) 115
-lascannon

Medusa 135

Leman Russ 165
-extra armor

platoon w/ a few special weapons?
melee?

1230

List makes sense. Still, you need more troops at 1500. Mech is probably your best bet for small model count. It will need a little tweaking. Let's see..

CCS, 4 melta, astropath

Stormies, 2 plasma, chimera, ml/hf
Stormies, 2 plasma, chimera, ml/hf

Vets, 3 melta, ac, chimera, ml/hf
Vets, 3 melta, ac, chimera, ml/hf
Vets, 3 melta, chimera, ml/hf
Vets, 3 melta, chimera, ml/hf

Valk
Russ, hb
Russ, hb

Lets see:
Small at 56 guardsmen.
Two squads of stormies.
Mechanized.
No fodder troops.

Should be fairly fun thanks to the stormies special operations and gives you quite a few options. Turbo boost your Valk with CCS/a vet squad to the biggest armour threat and toast it. Alternatively the Astropath gives you option to outflank the valk instead as well as the stormies. Note another option is to deepstrike/infiltrate the stormies and just deploy the chimeras with the rest of the outfit. These guys take a while to get used to but, imo, add a lot of flexibility and makes for a fun list.

Heya, welcome to the guard!

spiralingcadaver wrote:
Company CMD 95
-CMDR: Power weapon
-Regimental Std, 2 meltas
advisors? the ordinance guy seems good
commisar?
Chimera?

Drop the power weapon. At S3 it's not really worth at and you'll most likely have the squad wiped out (shooting or high initiative enemies) before you even get a chance to swing. Standard is better in large foot armies so I'd ditch it. The MoO honestly isn't that great. Besides with meltaguns you're probably going to be on the move most of the time so he won't be able to shoot at all. Never take a commissar in command squads as he will kill your officer if a morale test is failed.

A chimera is pretty much required if you have short-ranged guns like meltaguns or don't plan on having these guys sit still.

Storm Troopers 195
10, Grenade Launcher, Flamer, power weapon

Storm Troopers 195
10, Grenade Launcher, Flamer, power weapon

It's not worth paying the point for large squads of these guys. Hot-Shot Lasguns are not worth the price of a marine. Keep these squads small (5-man) and never mix-and-match weapons. Melta or Plasma would be ideal. Chimera is nice for the tactical flexibility (stormies can confer scouts onto the chimera if they start inside). I've had a lot of fun outflanking melta or plasma into the enemie's flanks.

Thanks for the tips, working on a new list now, but I was wondering, I love the look of storm trooper armor, but don't am not in love with the rules: is it worth it to upgrade veterans to carapace armor (i.e. use storm trooper models)?

Personally, I have found the carapace upgrade to be a bit of a waste, especially if you are keeping the guys inside of their transports. Even in an infantry-based army, veterans with that 4+ aren't going to get much use out of it; odds are they'll get blasted with bolters or exploded with high-strength weapons without a chance to use it considering their low(ish) model-count and all. Even when packing plasma guns, I wouldn't recommend upgrading your flak to carapace, but that is just personal preference!

I say you take it for a game or two and see how well they do. If you happen to get your tanks exploded a whole lot and the enemy isn't using S6/AP4 weapons to do it, then you might get a chance to use 'em.

About the only real use I've found for carapace armor is to stuff them in vendettas and scout them up to mess with the enemy's movement (in this case they're usually equipped with flamers). That and they can be useful in Dawn-of-War scenarios to mess with enemy deployment and hold the line a short time. Could possibly use them as assault blockers for your own vehicles.....but that might be better done by blobs.

So, carapace armor is better for upgrading defensive units than defending offensive ones?

Also, back when I used to play, grenade launchers weren't very desirable, are they considered any better these days?

spiralingcadaver wrote:
Also, back when I used to play, grenade launchers weren't very desirable, are they considered any better these days?

Depends on the list. They're nice for mobile mid-range S6 shots and blasts (whereas melta and plasma on the move are very short range). Most lists don't need them, but they can be useful.

So, after some reconsidering, this is what I'm looking at, for 1,000 points. All I have is the stormtroopers, a russ, and a unit of guardsmen, so it's all flexible. I'm not super-excited about the platoon, but thought more bodies is ultimately worth it. Thoughts? (thanks in advance)

(edit: I'd also like advice on eventually expanding to 1,500 points. I'm hoping to eventually including Creed, a Commisar Lord, Harker, and some more tanks, in no particular order, though I really like the concept of Creed, if he's worth it)

Company HQ 82
-melta x3, bolt pistol
Chimera 55
-ML/HF

Stormtrooper squad (8) 133
(in vendetta)

Veteran Squad 100
-melta x3
Chimera 55
-ML/HF

Veteran Squad 100
-melta x3
Chimera 55
-ML/HF

Platoon HQ 30

Infantry Squad 50
-flamer

Infantry Squad 50
-flamer

Vendetta 130

Leman Russ 150

To be honest, if your a new player, I would do all mech or all ground pounders. Work on a hybred list (a mix of mech and foot) when you get more familure with the game and for higher point games. Yeah, Chimeras are not cheap, but Vets in Chimeras is a pretty solid list.

Personally, I only take Grenade Launchers if the option is nothing. You can shoot and move with them and they have a 36" range. Problem is their best shot (Str 6, AP 4 Krak) bounces off of power armor (they get their save at 3+). And Marines are still the bench mark in this game... always have, always will be.

Carapace just ends up not being worth the points because Cover saves are so big right now. You get a free 4+ cover save just by sitting in a woods which is actually better than a 4+ armor save. If you want a defensive Doctrine, you end up with Sentries for a 3+ Cover save. The side perk of negating the extra attack from assaulters is nice. For offensive the Demolitions is best. 10 Melta bombs and the Demo charge are worth 70pts and your getting it for 30pts.

Creed is actually pretty damn awesome, unless your a mech list. You can not give Orders to units in Vehicles or to Vehicles. You can't give orders out of vehicles either, but a Chimera has a special rule called 'Command Vehicle' which allows to issue them out of it. It is possible for units that can issue Orders to issue Orders to itself. So Creed in a mech list is really a waste.

Lord Commissars are also actually really popular... in Foot lists. People like to put them next to their Heavy Weapon Squads (HWSs) due to the Lord's 'Aura of Discipline'. You get to use the Lord's Leadership 10 for Orders and for Morale and Pinning tests. If your feeling your oats, you can attach him to a HWS. He gives the HWS Stubborn and if you buy a Camo Cloak, he gives the whole unit 3+ cover saves. But if you fail a leadership roll (including Orders), he /has/ to kill a guy for a auto-reroll.

Harker is also really fun to use, specially in tandem with your STs. He gives his unit 3+ cover saves due to Scout and he can't take Grenaiders, so Demolitions is hot on him (and really the only option if you take a Doctrine). Since he has a heavy bolter, I like to give his unit a second HB and 3x Plasma guns and use them as a anti-infantry unit that starts 18" away from the enemy (and in cover). You can then hose down Devistator squads and the like. You can throw him in a Chimera but that 3+ cover save is just to awesome IMO to give up.

Platoons are good for a few things... power blobs, every unit counts as a troop so every unit in a platoon is scoring, heavy weapon squads and alot of special weapons. HWSs + Lord Commissar + Creed is pretty damn potent. BS 3 is sort of a pain, but Autocannons (ACs), Flamers, and Meltas (for 10pts, even at BS 3, they are worth it). I like giving Platoon Command Squads (PCS) 4x Flamers or 4x Sniper Rifles, AC + 2x Sniper Rifles or just 4x Melta guns is a great load-out.

Okay, thanks for the advice.

First, what's a ground pounder list?

Second, I'm more and more thinking that I'd like a mob of infantry with tank support where I can get it: is it possible to expand in this direction? (I'm looking at getting 1-2 Forgeworld Gorgon kits, which means 50-100 basic guardsmen) If going primarily infantry, are chimeras still worth it, or do you not have enough target saturation (for the enemy to have a problem)?