Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey all,
I just realized: should the word "throne" as a curse/swearword not be used only after the emperor got himself almost killed and entombed on the golden throne? Or does it originate from some other throne?

I ask this because the word is used in several HH novels - which are all set before that happens - in the same manner that it is sometimes used in 40K novels. And I feel it does not make much sense. Am I missing something?

It could've just been a reference to the power of the Emperor or something... I'm not sure.

I think Durza got it, using it like "Throne take you" or "Throne be damned" plays off the power associated with the word, throne being a reference to both the Golden Throne and whatever Mr Corpse sat on before getting prison shanked. It's the highest position of power in both era's.

That's how I look at it at least.

I think it's like referring to the British state/monarchy as "the crown"

I think the OP is right. It's an editorial mistake to include it before the Emperor's Ascension.

The Golden Throne did exist before the Emperor was entombed within it.

It's like basically saying "Aw, hell".

Psienesis wrote:I think the OP is right. It's an editorial mistake to include it before the Emperor's Ascension.

That'd be my guess as well. Back then, people only thought of the Emperor as the man, not the chair he was sitting on. Especially since he went crusading and left it to someone else for quite some time. The Imperium pretty much is the Emperor as an individual, not the position nor the object he would place his gold-armoured rectum on. The Throne only gained prominence with the sacrificial myth that was spread by the Ministorum.

Mistakes like that happen all the time, in novels even moreso than in the codices, depending on the individual author.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:It's like basically saying "Aw, hell".

Don't you mean "Aw, warp?"

Lynata wrote:
Mistakes like that happen all the time, in novels even moreso than in the codices, depending on the individual author.

Can't we go one thread without you posting this?

We get it. You don't like the novels, and you think that the authors that are employed by the Black Library don't know the universe as well as whoever happens to be writing 40k that cycle in the Studio.

Now, for the record:
A Golden Throne did exist prior to the Emperor being interred within the one we've all come to know and love.

Was it necessarily the same thing as what he ended up being plugged into after his confrontation with Horus? Probably not. But to insist that "Throne!" isn't a valid oath simply predicated upon the idea that there needed to be a sacrificial myth spread by the Ministorum is silly.

Should also add that oaths containing "By the Emperor's <insert anatomical part of your choosing here>!" were popular among Imperial soldiery of the time, with "By the Emperor's Golden Throne" being a logical jump for an oath where you're showing just how serious you are such as when one says "I swear on my mother's grave"--even if your mother's not actually dead.

Kanluwen wrote:
Now, for the record:
A Golden Throne did exist prior to the Emperor being interred within the one we've all come to know and love.

And no one knew about it.

This is clearly a case of them screwing up.

The whole idea of swearing "By the Throne" is that you're invoking the seat of power of the Emperor.

It doesn't matter if it's a lawn chair with "Emperor" painted on it or a great big honking gothic edifice crafted in solid gold and sporting so much bling it would make a rapper feel insecure--it's a throne, and it's the Emperor's.

Although admittedly, swearing by the Emperor's lawn chair is far less intimidating than swearing by his Golden Throne when you're calling for vengeance.

Kanluwen wrote:The whole idea of swearing "By the Throne" is that you're invoking the seat of power of the Emperor.

It doesn't matter if it's a lawn chair with "Emperor" painted on it or a great big honking gothic edifice crafted in solid gold and sporting so much bling it would make a rapper feel insecure--it's a throne, and it's the Emperor's.

Although admittedly, swearing by the Emperor's lawn chair is far less intimidating than swearing by his Golden Throne when you're calling for vengeance.

Any lawn chair that can support the Emperor's weight would have to be titanic in size and fortitude.

I don't see an inconsistency. It is not necessarily referring to the Golden Throne, just the throne of the Emperor, as Kanluwen said, "invoking his seat of power."

Not everything needs to be completely spelled out.

I didn't think it was a major matter, but I always found it a cool idea in the 40K-context, and having the same word used before the Emperor's Ascension somehow takes some of its coolness away.

The parallel to "crown" would be okay, but does anyone ever say "Oh crown"? I never heard that, and while I am not from Britain, I do watch a few british tv shows and read british books, so it should have come up, methinks.

And while the Golden Throne may have existed before His Demise, I cannot find it believable that it would have been a matter of any import.

Now if there was some kind of legend in 30K about some throne or other, that might give it credence, but I have never heard of such a thing, either - and it would also be awfully comfortable coincidence, wouldn't it?

So all in all, I am not really convinced this isn't simply a little blunder by a bunch of guys so used to writing 40K that they simply didn't think about it anymore and had their Marines use their common swearwords in 30K, too.

After ascending to the throne the emperor became widely worshiped as a god. Throne is like saying god.
eg: Oh my god! Dear God, God help us.
And so: Throne! Throne preserve us, Sacred Throne.

Throne should not be used in the HH series as it means nothing at that time.

My logic, as flawed as it may be, goes something like this.

Emperor = King

In Western history and literature, kings sit on thrones (the why is not important)

Throne represents his position of power and dominance as he rules from it by hearing out petitioners and foreign dignitaries etc (obviously the king can move and travel, but you see where I am going)

Therefore, to swear on or by the throne is to invoke the power of the ruler/monarch

Do I expect to sway anyone who believes it is just shoddy writing? No, however, for people to say that there is no explanation for it should at least consider what I and others have proposed before angrily condemning everyone at BL for their supposed heresy.

The Golden Throne they dug up out of the sands was the same one they interred the Emperor on at the conclusion of the Heresy and is the same one tied into the Webway Gate and all of that.

However, until it became his life-support machine for the next 10,000+ years, it did not have the common significance to the Imperium at large to become the basis of a common oath.

More accurately, during the time of the Great Crusade, as the Emperor wasn't sitting on any particular throne and was more about rolling along in the vanguard of the crusade fleets, it seems more appropriate that various oaths, curses and such be centered more on the Emperor and his person, as he, as an individual, was becoming an object of worship, rather than any particular bit of his trappings or equipment. So, given that this is pre-Ascension, more fitting would be something like "Emperor's teeth!" or "Aww, by the Emperor's left nostril..." and so forth. While the Golden Throne did already exist, it wasn't widely known to anyone, especially not common Imperial citizens, and would not become a focus of the cult of the God-Emperor for some time yet.

Think of it this way... Romans crucified a lot more people than just Jesus of Nazareth... but the cross took on much greater significance after his crucifixion than at any other time in its history. He was neither the first nor the last to be nailed to one, but, given the religion that sprang up around him, it sure became the most important cross in the history of man.

So it is with the Emperor... the Golden Throne didn't become a *major deal* until his ascension to it following the Heresy. I think this is simply an editorial oversight, because while the various curses and oaths involving the Throne ("By the Throne!" "Throne of Terra!" "Throne!" etc.) sound good and lend a great cadence to the dialog in the text, it just doesn't line up well with the chronology of the setting.

Kellhus wrote:My logic, as flawed as it may be, goes something like this.

Emperor = King

In Western history and literature, kings sit on thrones (the why is not important)

Throne represents his position of power and dominance as he rules from it by hearing out petitioners and foreign dignitaries etc (obviously the king can move and travel, but you see where I am going)

Therefore, to swear on or by the throne is to invoke the power of the ruler/monarch

Do I expect to sway anyone who believes it is just shoddy writing? No, however, for people to say that there is no explanation for it should at least consider what I and others have proposed before angrily condemning everyone at BL for their supposed heresy.

Well, for one thing, it is not a big deal - I certainly wouldn't write Graham McNeill a letter about it, I just noticed it and wanted to know whether there was some piece of fluff about that pre-heresy-throne that I had not seen or forgotten.

More to the point, however, there was never a 'King-on-his-throne'-vibe to the Emperor for me. No throne is ever mentioned except as that curse, Terra is not yet even called holy, there is no actual idea of an ancient monarchy or something like that. The Emperor is just that: the Emperor. His position and power are so complete that no-one ever even questions it. The only symbol use in reference to him is the Aquila. As someone before posted, it has become common over the centuries to refer to the British king or queen as 'the crown', but nothing of the like has been told about the Emperor. It has never been mentioned outside its use in the 40K-form in any of the novels. Never is the Emperor referred to as 'the throne' (as in 'the throne has decided this, the throne has gone there). Now certainly I could just simply fill in the gaps myself and think that maybe it is meant that way. And maybe the authors did mean it that way. In that case, however, they forgot to tell everyone else - while they had the perfect opportunity to do so via the text of the novel they were writing. So in fact we'd have more reason to chide them if it was supposed to be a word referring to his seat of power and not just an oversight, because then they implemented it very badly.

Now, just to be sure, let me repeat: I did not write this topic to flame them. I enjoy those books. It is a minor detail that occurred to me.

Kanluwen wrote:Can't we go one thread without you posting this?
We get it. You don't like the novels, and you think that the authors that are employed by the Black Library don't know the universe as well as whoever happens to be writing 40k that cycle in the Studio.

Can't we go one thread without you complaining?
We get it. You love the novels, and you think that the authors employed by the Black Library can do no wrong.

Freedom of speech, man. You don't have to agree, but in my opinion it is silly to dismiss the possibility of an editorial mistake when it is clearly not the first one to have happened in the franchise as a whole and when novels in particular have a tendency for this, and arrogant to flame other people just for disagreeing when their posts were not even directed at you. Chill.

I like to come up with in-universe excuses for stuff myself, but I guess my personal stance on the question of canonicity makes it far easier for me to dismiss things spelled out in licensed products entirely before bothering to "solve" them with a made-up explanation. I understand that you have a different stance, so you are welcome to post suggestions as to how others who share your understanding may deal with this as well. But that doesn't mean that other opinions are "WRONG!!1", mkay.

For the record, just like Skylifter I think details such as these are really minor. They wouldn't even warrant a discussion if there wasn't the remote possibility that it may actually still be right (which I acknowledge but just think of as being very, very unlikely).

It would be "an editorial mistake" if it was in, say, "Descent of Angels" which takes place prior to the Heresy--hell, prior to the Great Crusade taking place in full.

The fact that it happens after the Great Crusade concludes, and the fact that it's not limited to one book means it's a conscious decision on the part of the authors who are part of the "Horus Heresy Crew".

By the Emperor's Crapper

In Africa a King was killed when the weight of his collection of seats which caused the rafters to break and he was crushed underneath.
People who live in grass houses should not stow thrones!

Throne being the traditional seat of an emperor, there's no reason why he wouldn't have used a throne to represent his authority and power.

Lynata wrote:
Freedom of speech, man.

You don't have that here. None of us do.

Psienesis wrote:The Golden Throne they dug up out of the sands was the same one they interred the Emperor on at the conclusion of the Heresy and is the same one tied into the Webway Gate and all of that.

However, until it became his life-support machine for the next 10,000+ years, it did not have the common significance to the Imperium at large to become the basis of a common oath.

More accurately, during the time of the Great Crusade, as the Emperor wasn't sitting on any particular throne and was more about rolling along in the vanguard of the crusade fleets, it seems more appropriate that various oaths, curses and such be centered more on the Emperor and his person, as he, as an individual, was becoming an object of worship, rather than any particular bit of his trappings or equipment. So, given that this is pre-Ascension, more fitting would be something like "Emperor's teeth!" or "Aww, by the Emperor's left nostril..." and so forth. While the Golden Throne did already exist, it wasn't widely known to anyone, especially not common Imperial citizens, and would not become a focus of the cult of the God-Emperor for some time yet.

Think of it this way... Romans crucified a lot more people than just Jesus of Nazareth... but the cross took on much greater significance after his crucifixion than at any other time in its history. He was neither the first nor the last to be nailed to one, but, given the religion that sprang up around him, it sure became the most important cross in the history of man.

So it is with the Emperor... the Golden Throne didn't become a *major deal* until his ascension to it following the Heresy. I think this is simply an editorial oversight, because while the various curses and oaths involving the Throne ("By the Throne!" "Throne of Terra!" "Throne!" etc.) sound good and lend a great cadence to the dialog in the text, it just doesn't line up well with the chronology of the setting.

This is excellent reasoning. When you put it that way it really does seem to line up well with the analogy of Jesus and the Cross. Which of course supports your argument that perhaps the timing is off, I'm convinced.

Psienesis wrote:So it is with the Emperor... the Golden Throne didn't become a *major deal* until his ascension to it following the Heresy. I think this is simply an editorial oversight, because while the various curses and oaths involving the Throne ("By the Throne!" "Throne of Terra!" "Throne!" etc.) sound good and lend a great cadence to the dialog in the text, it just doesn't line up well with the chronology of the setting.

'Throne' does not equal 'Golden Throne'...

He's an Emperor. He sits on a throne. Swearing by something attributed to a monarch or deity is certainly nothing new.

Ktulhut wrote:I think it's like referring to the British state/monarchy as "the crown"

Spot on!

Sounds to me like they liked the sound of it and thought 'eh, why not'. The 'fluff' explanations are sensible enough but given the importance of the Golden Throne post-Heresy I doubt a vaguer meaning would be encouraged if only not to muddy the waters. Still, I'm not greatly versed in the HH novels so you could be more than right.

I actually ran across a fantastic example of swearing by a concept today, and thought I'd share.

Whilst reading "Tar Heel Ghosts" by John Harden, I came across the story of the "Little Red Man". Without going into too much detail on it, it was a story from the town of Winston-Salem, North Carolina and dealt with a tale told about the Moravian Church.

At the time of publication of the book(1954), it had been a decade or so since the supposed exorcism of the supposed entity, yet since 1786 in Winston-Salem and the appearance of the entity it was not uncommon for people to end their serious statements with "May the Little Red Man get me if I'm lying!".

Now, I bring this up because it's the idea behind it.
Is the Little Red Man clearly going to get them? Of course not. It's a statement that made it into the local lexicon, and didn't go away. It's used to emphasize the seriousness of the statement, such as if one were to say "By the Throne, I swear that I'll kill every damned Ork on this world" or "By the Little Red Man, I didn't take the last cookie!".

Kanluwen wrote:snip

I get your point but its not relevent to the OP. The Little Red Man wasn't a Winston-Salem oath prior to 1786. Its chronology, not resonance that's the beef here.

The thing you have to remember is that pre-Heresy, the Emperor was still striding the galaxy. People did swear "by the Emperor" or "by Terra". It's only post-Heresy that people started referencing "The Golden Throne" when they in fact would mean "The Emperor".

Following the Emperor's interment within The Golden Throne, the two concepts were seemingly muddled into one and the same by the Ecclesiarchy.

It's not really that big of a stretch to think of that happening.
The office of the Pope is a great example of this, where the Pope's words are effectively considered dogmatic law to Catholicism.