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Okay, so my friend asked me to look at his list that his other friend had made for his Black Templar Army. So I sat down one sunny Texas afternoon with a glass of Lemonade and a Copy of the Codex/FAQ/ And Original Army List infront of me. Now, its possible that I boiled away my brain in the heat but when I got done reading the Codex/FAQ/List I was slightly miffed. I am not going to post full weapon combinations and such, as those don't really matter, (for the sake of list lets just assume a fair mix of bolter/ bolter-ccw, on the squads that have them. And I want to know if you all are seeing the same...what the heck is this garbage that I am seeing. Thanks in advance, and I appreciate the help.

HQ
Marshal Iron Halo, Admantine Mantle, Power Sword, Plasma Pistol, Holy Orb of Antichoch 180
Emperors Champion Vow: Accept Any Challenge No Matter the Odds 140
Elites
Sword Brethren Squad Terminator Honors, Frag Grenades, Crusader Seals,Power Sword, Lightning Claw x2 200
Sword Brethren Term Asslt Crusader Seals, Lightning Claws x4, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Furious Charge 225
Troops
Crusader Squad Alpha
Initiate 5
Neophyte 5
Crusader Seals, Power Weapon, Frag&Krak Grenades, Flamer Rhino(smoke launchers, Power of the Machine Spirit) 269
Crusader Squad Beta
Initiate 5 Crusader Seals, Krak Grenades, Heavy Bolter, Melta Gun , 125
Crusader Squad Charlie
Initiate 5 Crusader Seals, Krak Grenades,Missle Launcher, Flamer 126
Fast Attack
Assault Squad 5 Krak Grenades,Melta Bombs,Power Sword, Storm Shield, Flamer, Plasma Pistol 141

Heavy Support

Total 1406 Total Goal 1500 Plus or Minus 94

I am slightly confused. It looks like you were set on models and then armed to make up points.

Rhinos, razorbacks are a bit expensive but they are needed.
Grenades are not usually worth the points.
potms is good for preds not so needed for rhinos.
etc.

Maybe you want some overview: You either go for a hugely shooting based army or you try to win assaults or you can just about do a strange drop pod army.

It's not my list. I am happy with my SW list that eats most armies alive and still manages to swallow the bones. I am a vet space marine player of six years. My friend(who is new to my group) was trying to figure out why my list was excelling and his was very seldomly winning.

Actually it is common mistakes in making list, so should be able to guide him with the basics.

Needless upgrades,

Lack of mobility

Lack of focus of intent of the entire army

Lack of focus of each unit on what roles they may be able to fulfil and their ability to fulfil them.

So let's say he wants to build a cc army as BT have great number of skills. Then you make sure the whole army knows this is the plan.
How will you get the squads into cc? Do they have wargear to fight in cc successfully? Do they need grenades?
Do you then have cover for them?

So for example assault marines can not be equipped adequately to fight in cc. However they could all be given stormshields and can be used as a cc tarpit.

Or take 5 man squad with a ML. Can they have any impact in cc? No, so you want to use them as covering fire maybe. So maybe giving a plasma gun to give some ranged fire to the squad, then dropping the grenades. Do they need transport, well a rhino to shoot from or lazorback to shoot with may be nice.

Oddly enough, Black Templars are easily the best shooting marine army. Only get the marshal so that you can get a terminator command squad w/ 2 CMLs and Tank Hunters.

In general Black Templars are pretty hard to fight in Assault. Black Templars with AAC turn even Khorne Berzerkers into a laughing stock. Additionally the AAC makes it worth it on your PowerFist toting models. It more than makes up for their one less attack for example:

BT PwrFist vs WS4 Unit

1 x .75 x .83 = .6225
(31pt Model)

Vet Sergeant PwrFist vs WS4 Unit

2x .5 x .83 = .83
(51pt Model)

Now on the charge:

2x .75 x .83 = 1.245
v.
3x .5 x .83 =1.245

This means that standing still, the BT PwrFist is slightly more cost effective, and on the charge, the BT PwrFist is clearly cost effective.




In general with BT shooting armies, the Lazorbacks may cost 15pts more than Space Marine ones, but you make up for that by having half the number of marines.

1. He can't have both Iron Halo and Adamantine Mantle since it's against the rules, but theres no point in the halo anyways since the storm shield gives you a better save (3++)

2. Sword brethren are a waste of points unless they have terminator armour.

3. Assault terminators need transport so if you don't have a LRC use shooty ones with 2x CML

4. No need for crusader zeals in any squad

5. He should drop the kraks the CC unit have and use Melta Gun and/or Power Fists instead. I would recommend having two of the squads, but 9 man strong and with the EC and Marshall joining them in the Rhinos.

6. IMO using plasma guns and Lascannons in the ranged crusader squads is better than the setup he's using. He can also give them a Lazorback as transport for some extra firepower

7. No need for kraks on the assault squad when you have melta bombs.