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I apologize if this is a repeat, I saw similar questions but...

FNP states it does not work for weapons that cause ID (either through high strength, or special rule to that effect). My question is what about weapons, that only cause ID on a characteristic test? Some weapons it wouldn't matter as they are power weapons, i.e. boneswords, dire swords; but what about others, such as the hexrifle? And yes I am aware of the locked debate regarding FNP and Hexrifle, I'm using that as an example.

It seems to make sense to me that you would get the Feel No Pain roll if it doesn't cause Instant Death. If you pass the Characteristic test, and it DOES cause Instant Death, then Feel No Pain would be negated.

I'm sure that if you give it a few minutes, though, someone is going to come along and tell you why I'm wrong. They'll probably also be a wiener about it.

I'm assuming your referencing both the 3 page and 11+ page FNP vs Hexrifle arguments? Where all that happened were back and forths of "I'm right, you're wrong. La la la la la, not listening"

No, I was just referencing the general tendency towards wienerhood in a few of the YMDC posters.

thought the hex rifle removed you from play?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:thought the hex rifle removed you from play?

Correct... if you fail a "Wound" Characteristic test.

The OP's question is can you use FnP on wounds the can cause ID? Like the DE's Flesh Guantlet? It wounds on 4+ that forces the model to make a Toughness test, that if failed causes ID.

man, what an example lol. Beings neither takes precedence/priority, fnp or char test, i feel you get fnp. it may or may not be id and it may or may not be a wound.

I would look at it in order.
FNP is used after the Wound has been causes so they both happen at the same time.

Now applying the rules from CC same Initiative they go at the same time, so I would assume you get the FNP if you fail It's also ID.

Just my thoughts It allows both to work and uses other rules to justify it, I think thats how GW intended it to be.

Just my thoughts

To OP: it's probably best to clear it with your opponent/TO as to how you want to play it.

If you're asking about would FnP be taken on wounds that can cause ID... I'm not sure... I would think you can still take the FnP test... but, I think this opens a whole 'nother can of worms...

*stirring the pot*

There's 3 factions:

Faction#1: Common sense says that you need to resolve the FnP result first before determining if the other rules kick in... So, if you made you're FnP, then hexrifle or fleshgauntlet's special rule doesn't kick in. In order to be consistent with this, that also means other "secondary" effect won't kick in for successful FnP rolls, such as the following:
a) Pinning weapons (although I think the Eldar's Nightspinner only requires the template to hit)
b) DE model with FnP with Shadowfield. If successful, model doesn't lose the shadowfield
c) Other wargear/abilities that requires unsaved wound to trigger
d) Even INAT ruled this:

RB.75B.01 – Q: If ‘Feel No Pain’ successfully
negates a wound, does it still count as an ‘unsaved
wound’ (for special rules that are triggered by
unsaved wounds)?
A: It does not as the wound is ignored (although
remember that ‘Feel No Pain’ cannot be used against
wounds that inflict ‘Instant Death’) [clarification].

Faction #2: There are no expressed order of operation to resolve multiple rules if triggered by the same event, therefore they are all resolved at the same time. For instance, a hexrifle/fleshguantlet causes an unsaved wound, with a model that has FnP. This triggers 2 effect at the sametime:
Test 1) resolve for FnP
Test 2) resolve for Wound/Toughness Characteristic test
Both these tests are independent from one another and must be resolve simultaneously. You can make your FnP roll, but fail the Characteristic test (ID or Removed from play).

Again, to be consistent, if an pinning weapon causes an unsaved wound, you must test for that, even if you made a successful FnP.

Likewise, if a DE model (Baron Sathypants) fails his 2++ shadowfield save, but made his FnP roll due to have a paintoken... he lost his shadowfield for the rest of the game.

Faction #3: There's no consensus... so, roll it off prior to the game

keep it civil ya'll

Well this can be cleared up easily if you simply read the entry about the hexrifle. The hexrifle does NOT cause instant death, it causes the model to be removed. This is similar to a CSM using Gift of Chaos. The hexrifle "removes the figure" and ignores little things like ID and EW. So since the hexrifle does NOT cause instant death it wouldn't negate FnP. If you fail your FnP save though and then fail the wound test then your model is gone, even if it is an EW.

Now to use a weapon that does cause ID we'll use a force weapon as an example. The model takes their initial save and fails, now at this point does the model get to use FnP? At this point the model with the force weapon needs to activate the weapon to negate the FnP save, however if the weapon is not active (possibly because the model doesn't have a left over psychic test it may utilize) then FnP can be used.

I hope this clears things up, good luck and good gaming!

Happyjew wrote:FNP states it does not work for weapons that cause ID (either through high strength, or special rule to that effect). My question is what about weapons, that only cause ID on a characteristic test? Some weapons it wouldn't matter as they are power weapons, i.e. boneswords, dire swords; but what about others, such as the hexrifle?

Hexrifle does not cause ID.

I do not know of anything that causes ID on a Chr test.

Can you give us an example of something that does if anything?

GreyChaos wrote:Now to use a weapon that does cause ID we'll use a force weapon as an example. The model takes their initial save and fails, now at this point does the model get to use FnP? At this point the model with the force weapon needs to activate the weapon to negate the FnP save, however if the weapon is not active (possibly because the model doesn't have a left over psychic test it may utilize) then FnP can be used.

But as a Force Weapon, you would not get FnP anyway, regardless of any special rule it has. Is there any other weapon that can be used as an example, because I can't think of one?

UltraPrime wrote:

GreyChaos wrote:Now to use a weapon that does cause ID we'll use a force weapon as an example. The model takes their initial save and fails, now at this point does the model get to use FnP? At this point the model with the force weapon needs to activate the weapon to negate the FnP save, however if the weapon is not active (possibly because the model doesn't have a left over psychic test it may utilize) then FnP can be used.

But as a Force Weapon, you would not get FnP anyway, regardless of any special rule it has. Is there any other weapon that can be used as an example, because I can't think of one?

My apologies, I used a bad reference for that. Tired and not thinking that Force Weapons are also PW

DeathReaper wrote:

Happyjew wrote:FNP states it does not work for weapons that cause ID (either through high strength, or special rule to that effect). My question is what about weapons, that only cause ID on a characteristic test? Some weapons it wouldn't matter as they are power weapons, i.e. boneswords, dire swords; but what about others, such as the hexrifle?

Hexrifle does not cause ID.

I do not know of anything that causes ID on a Chr test.

Can you give us an example of something that does if anything?

DE's wargear "Flesh Gauntlet" is one such weapon...

So on the flesh gauntlet, does it say "any model wounded by" or "any model suffering an unsaved wound"? If it is the former, I would say no FNP, because FNP doesnt kick in until after you fail your regular save. If it is the latter, its the hexrifle argument again.

My apologies on the Hexrifle, I did not realize it was just removed from play. I agree that there aren't many weapons (even the D-cannon/Wraithcannon ignore FNP due to being AP2) but I assumed there might be some.

lledwey wrote:So on the flesh gauntlet, does it say "any model wounded by" or "any model suffering an unsaved wound"? If it is the former, I would say no FNP, because FNP doesnt kick in until after you fail your regular save. If it is the latter, its the hexrifle argument again.

It's the Hexrifle's argument again...

It says you take the test when you suffer an unsaved wound...

@Whembly Not exactly. The Hexrifle/FNP argument was whether or not you would have to take the Hexrifle test if you passed FNP. My question is for weapons that cause ID on a characteristic test, would FNP even apply, since it says you cannot use FNP on weapons that cause ID (high enough strength or special ability of the weapon). I.E. Diresword - If a model suffers an unsaved wound from a diresword, it must immediately pass a Ld test for each wound taken. If any of these test fail, the model is killed automatically. Unfortunately the diresword is a poor example, since as a power weapon it ignores FNP anyway.

Happyjew wrote:@Whembly Not exactly. The Hexrifle/FNP argument was whether or not you would have to take the Hexrifle test if you passed FNP. My question is for weapons that cause ID on a characteristic test, would FNP even apply, since it says you cannot use FNP on weapons that cause ID (high enough strength or special ability of the weapon). I.E. Diresword - If a model suffers an unsaved wound from a diresword, it must immediately pass a Ld test for each wound taken. If any of these test fail, the model is killed automatically. Unfortunately the diresword is a poor example, since as a power weapon it ignores FNP anyway.

I see what you're saying... but, it's sorta the same argument.
Let's using the Flesh Gauntlet as an example, where a model suffers an unsaved wound:

Do you A) take the FnP test first, because if successful, you "ignore the injury". Folks treat that as if the unsaved wound never occured.

Or

Do you B) take the wound and take the Toughness Test (for multi-wound models). Since Flesh Gauntlet can cause ID, it denies FnP. I think the RAI is that you should get your FnP roll, but RAW-ishly... I can see why you can argue that it denies FnP.

Or

Do you C) take your FnP roll, because Flesh Gauntlet doesn't always cause ID and take the Toughness Test at the same time, since both rules trigger on the model suffering an unsaved wound.

never easy...

RB.75B.01 – Q: If ‘Feel No Pain’ successfully
negates a wound, does it still count as an ‘unsaved
wound’ (for special rules that are triggered by
unsaved wounds)?
A: It does not as the wound is ignored (although
remember that ‘Feel No Pain’ cannot be used against
wounds that inflict ‘Instant Death’)

IMO: Because of this - until FNP is resolved, it is not an unsaved wound. "(for special rules that are triggered by unsaved wounds)" - Flesh Gauntlet has a special rule that is triggered by an unsaved wound. I guess I just don't see the other side of the fence on this.

Till it's officially clarified, play however your circle plays it - and be sure to ask your TO before you stake a strategy on it.

Unfortunately that quote is from the INAT FAQ. INAT FAQ, and how we play it both are not allowed as answers. Or something to that effect anyway. Also my question was regarding the weapons that can cause ID, but not always.

Hey, the forum name told me I could make the call! haha.

Anyway, I -was- talking about weapons that can cause ID, but not always. I, personally, like the INAT faq. If it has a ruling one way or another on an ambiguous situation, I typically go with it.

RB.75B.01 does addres wounds that can cause ID "if FNP negates a wound, does it still count as an 'unsaved wound' (for special rules that are triggered by unsaved wounds)" A: It does not as the wound is ignored (remember FNP cannot be used against wound that inflict ID)

Now, in the Question part - "for special rules that are triggered by unsaved wounds" - imo, this is pretty clear that you take FNP before the wound is considered "unsaved". THEN, if FNP fails, you roll for "special rules that are triggered by unsaved wounds".

Whether you want to utilize the INAT FAQ as a resource for clearing up rulings is up to you.

That's me "making da call" anyway. Could be wrong.

whembly wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Happyjew wrote:FNP states it does not work for weapons that cause ID (either through high strength, or special rule to that effect). My question is what about weapons, that only cause ID on a characteristic test? Some weapons it wouldn't matter as they are power weapons, i.e. boneswords, dire swords; but what about others, such as the hexrifle?

Hexrifle does not cause ID.

I do not know of anything that causes ID on a Chr test.

Can you give us an example of something that does if anything?

DE's wargear "Flesh Gauntlet" is one such weapon...

No. It isn't.
It's a poisoned weapon that wounds on a 4+, and if the target fails his armor, he gets instagibbed.
It says nothing about a toughness test.

If at any point you are allowed to take an armor save, you get to take a fnp roll, unless it's double toughness.

I don't have a DE codex, so I don't know exactly what the rules state...

The other stipulation in FNP is you don't get it if the attack causes ID (whether from Double Toughness or special ability). In the codexs (codicies?) I have all the weapons that cause ID on a characteristic test ignore FNP anyway due to being power weapons/AP1 or 2. I'm assuming there are weapons out there where if you fail your armor save you are ID (regardless of Toughness), however my question is regarding weapons that cause ID on a characteristic test but are AP3 or worse. I don't know if there are or not. Someone mentioned the Flesh Gauntlet, but someone else mentions it causes ID on a failed save. Someone else mentioned the Hexrifle, but IIRC that just removes from play on a failed Toughness test (which is another debate entirely).

The important part here is exactly what the rules state.

Without the wording, it will be difficult to determine if you would or would not get a feel no pain roll.

As this discussion is purely academic anyways; I will add my opinion:

FNP is countered by weapons "that inflict Instant death"; not "that could inflict Instant death". Because of this, I would say that you fail your armor save(or have it denied due to AP that is more than 2, but less than or equal to your Save value), and then roll your characteristic test. If you pass your characteristic test, you can try your FNP because the weapon did not inflict ID. If you fail your characteristic test, then you are ID'd and get no FNP.

This order(again, Characteristic test, then FNP if passed) just makes sense since a passed test leaves the weapon not inflicting ID, and thus not denying the FNP test.

I do like that EW is written into the FNP rules, even though it does not need to be since the weapon would still inflict ID, but the models special rule(EW) denies the effect.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

whembly wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Happyjew wrote:FNP states it does not work for weapons that cause ID (either through high strength, or special rule to that effect). My question is what about weapons, that only cause ID on a characteristic test? Some weapons it wouldn't matter as they are power weapons, i.e. boneswords, dire swords; but what about others, such as the hexrifle?

Hexrifle does not cause ID.

I do not know of anything that causes ID on a Chr test.

Can you give us an example of something that does if anything?

DE's wargear "Flesh Gauntlet" is one such weapon...

No. It isn't.
It's a poisoned weapon that wounds on a 4+, and if the target fails his armor, he gets instagibbed.
It says nothing about a toughness test.

Oops... got 'em mixed up. Not applicable here... sorry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:As this discussion is purely academic anyways; I will add my opinion:

FNP is countered by weapons "that inflict Instant death"; not "that could inflict Instant death". Because of this, I would say that you fail your armor save(or have it denied due to AP that is more than 2, but less than or equal to your Save value), and then roll your characteristic test. If you pass your characteristic test, you can try your FNP because the weapon did not inflict ID. If you fail your characteristic test, then you are ID'd and get no FNP.

This order(again, Characteristic test, then FNP if passed) just makes sense since a passed test leaves the weapon not inflicting ID, and thus not denying the FNP test.

I do like that EW is written into the FNP rules, even though it does not need to be since the weapon would still inflict ID, but the models special rule(EW) denies the effect.

Purely academic... I like this!