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One for you guys to pick at

Played a game against a friends' Grey Knights the other day who used a Stormraven with a unit and an attached Librarian. He went flat out in turn one to get a cover save for his Stormraven and then went to cast the Shrouding in my shooting phase to give the thing Stealth. Now, I also have a Grey Knight army and when looking up combos I told myself that this could not be done due to the specific wording of the Shrouding Psychic Power:

Fast Skimmer going flat out count as obscured (gets a 4+ cover save)

Stealth:

All of the unit's cover saves are improved by 1

Shrouding reads:

If the psychic test is successful, the librarian and any friendly units within 6" of him have the stealth special rule. If the unit is not in cover it benefits from a 6+ cover save instead.

It's the IN COVER here that made me rule out this combo, as it seems the stormraven must be in cover (and not benefiting from cover as my opponent seems to advocate) for it to be able to benefit from the stealth, as otherwise it will just get a 6+ cover save instead.

Thoughts on this, guys? The 3+ thing seems to pop up a lot when googling it, but I cannot shake the impression that most of them are applying the shrouding psychic power wrongly ...

If shrouding can effect vehicles, then they would get +1 to cover saves. Vehicles only get cover saves if they are obscured (50% or more). Flat Out makes your vehicle obscured, therefore the Stealth would improve it by to a 3+

I get all that Happyjew. But the wording of the PP Shrouding seems to imply otherwise.

The unit is not in cover. It has a special rule (flatout) that confers to a vehicle the ability of being obscured even in the open. See p62.

Since the unit is not IN cover, Stealth would not come into effect and the unit would get a 6+ cover save instead.

At least that's my interpretation.

Stealth improves cover saves. It says nothing about actually being in cover. Flat out provides you with a cover save, which would be improved by the Stealth rule. If the Stormraven was not in cover then it would revert to using a 6+.

BTW, for more info check out http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/402425.page

The unit IS in cover, as it has a cover save. Read page 22, from memory.

You get a 3+ cover save from this combo

nos, where on page 22 or otherwise in the rulebook does it say exactly that, or imply as much? I cannot find anything to assuage the doubt ...

When any part of the target model's body (as defined on page 16) is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover

I think this is the part you're referring to? That still doesn't help this discussion along does it as it is referring to LOS? Nowhere does it say clear cut that you are 'in' cover if you simply have a cover save. Though if it would have said that it would have been nice to avoid all this

For the sake of the discussion, Let's assume the Stormraven is in the open, and it is not obscured at any point from the view of the firer.

..as they usually are. Damn hard to hide them!

Its more that in order to have a cover save, you must be "in cover" - thats how cover saves are defined. There is no excluded middle here.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Its more that in order to have a cover save, you must be "in cover" - thats how cover saves are defined.

Yes, and page 62 stipulates that it works differently for vehicles, with the following exceptions to the normal rules for cover:
Vehicle's facing has to be at least 50% hidden from the POV of the firer for it to claim to be 'in cover'. If this is the case, the vehicle is said to be obscured.

There's nothing that stipulates that being 'obscured' also directly implies that you're 'in cover' being a vehicle.

The "If a special rule or a piece of wargear confers to a vehicle the ability of being obscured even if in the open" statement is also an argument for that case. You can be obscured while being in the open, thus not in cover.

I know logic dictates that anything that is granted a cover save should be counted as being 'in cover', but like with so many things from GW it hardly is so easy.

the only way it works differently is that you must be physically obscured, the presence of area terrain isnt enough, and that you must be at least 50% covered.

Besides, Stealth USR has nothing to do with cover. Only cover saves. Flat out is a cover save. Stealth improves cover saves. Ergo Stealth improves Flat Out cover save. Nowhere does it say in the Stealth USR you have to be in cover to make use of it. It only says you get a +1 to cover saves.

Happyjew wrote:Besides, Stealth USR has nothing to do with cover. Only cover saves. Flat out is a cover save. Stealth improves cover saves. Ergo Stealth improves Flat Out cover save. Nowhere does it say in the Stealth USR you have to be in cover to make use of it. It only says you get a +1 to cover saves.

We're not debating cover saves, or the direct application of the Stealth USR here Happyjew.

We're discussing when being 'in cover' applies for vehicles because Shrouding is written in such a way that implies that when a vehicle is not in cover it doesn't get the benefit of Stealth and hence can't get a 3+ if it moved flat-out in the open. That is the heart of this debate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:the only way it works differently is that you must be physically obscured, the presence of area terrain isnt enough, and that you must be at least 50% covered.

So, what you're saying here is that a Stormraven in the open isn't physically obscured, isn't at least 50% covered and thus isn't in cover and doesn't get the benefit of the Stealth USR?

A skimmer moving flat out counts as obscured. By definition, doesn't "being obscured" mean that you are "in cover" whether you physically are or not? It would be the same thing for Smoke Launchers. A vehicle that used Smoke Launchers counts as obscured. They are not physically "in cover", but being "obscured" is the same thing. Basically, you can be "in cover" without being "obscured", but you cannot be "obscured" without being "in cover", by definition.

In this situation, I read "obscured" and "in cover" interchangably and the Stormraven benefits.

What kind of save would a Shrouded Stormraven get vs an Hydra Autocannon? 6+ or no save?

Fearspect wrote:What kind of save would a Shrouded Stormraven get vs an Hydra Autocannon? 6+ or no save?

I would say none. The Hydra isn't removing the Stormraven from its "in cover/obscured" status, it is simply stating that cover saves may not be taken (from memory).

Well, what it says is that it doesn't allow saves granted from moving flat out, what I'm wondering is if Shrouding would also grant the vehicle a 6+ 'standard' cover save.

tom -no, that isnt what i was saying. I was pointing out what "vehicle cover saves work differently" actually means. Good takiunig things out of context there.....

When being shot at by a hydra the SR has no cover save, so would get a 6+

nosferatu1001 wrote:

When being shot at by a hydra the SR has no cover save, so would get a 6+

So, something that ignores cover saves, would give the unit a cover save? The SR doesn't just suddenly get an invulnerable save. It receives a 6+ cover, if it is in the open.

I would say the Hydra negates the 3+ cover, and then goes on to negate the 6+ cover.

Edit: Unless the wording from the Hydra says "from moving flat out", which it might. I'm at work

No, the Hydra ignores cover saves generated by SMF and TB. Nothing else.

Hence its not gaining an invulnerable save, it just doesnt have a cover save whgen a Hydra shoots at them

nosferatu1001 wrote:tom -no, that isnt what i was saying. I was pointing out what "vehicle cover saves work differently" actually means. Good takiunig things out of context there.....

Not taking things out of context. Trying to understand why you are coming to your conclusions. Simply not seeing it at the moment (and I have the tendency to agree with most of what you say usually, so I'm digging to see if you can make it click for me ).

The vehicles and cover section is very specific about when a vehicle counts as being in cover. And it specifically states it is in exception to the normal rules for cover. I have seen no arguments from you that work around that somehow, and it is the crux of this rules discussion.

By no means an important one, but since it came up I tossed it out here.

There are two, separate ways that a Stormraven can get a cover save:

1) From traveling flat out.
2) From being obscured or popping smoke.

Shrouding will increase both of those saves. If it moved flat out, it will get a 3+ save against shooting, but the Hydra ignores it completely.

It will also get a 6+ cover save for the save you would get by having your vehicle obscured, if it is in fact not obscured. Hydras cannot ignore this type of cover save.

You tracking?

Fearspect wrote:There are two, separate ways that a Stormraven can get a cover save:

1) From traveling flat out.
2) From being obscured or popping smoke.

Shrouding will increase both of those saves. If it moved flat out, it will get a 3+ save against shooting, but the Hydra ignores it completely.

It will also get a 6+ cover save for the save you would get by having your vehicle obscured, if it is in fact not obscured. Hydras cannot ignore this type of cover save.

Yes, this was established by nosferatu in his reply to me, but I was also leaning toward that interpretation (indicated by my edited caveat) in my post.

Fearspect wrote:You tracking?

I'm not sure what this means. I don't speak Canadian.

A good trick when posting about rules is to not bother if you do not have access to those rules, puma.

My post was a reply to tom_ep, the person who posted directly above me.

Tom - no, it says simply having 1% of your body obscured isnt sufficient, and area terrain doesnt help you - you are still required to be actually obscured OR have an ability that makes you count as obscured. The standard definition of "in cover" and "obscured" doesnt alter for vehicles, they just have a different threshold for getting the cover save.

If you are in cover, you are obscured. If you are obscured, you are in A form of cover.

Nos and fearspect are spot on correct.

Ehm guys, i have read all over the internet and the most quoted answer is the stormraven gets a 3+ Cover Save when flatting out, BUT.....


did anyone consider that in the codex the rules for the shrouding say "... the Librarian and every friendly UNIT(S) within 6'' ... "
now, do vehicles count as Units?
I read soemthing about this like

As for which counts as 'Grey Knight Units' the vehicle section actually has it written that Land Raiders crew counts as Grey Knights so yes, I think you get Shrouding

but im not convinced about this point of view.

Anyone willing to clarify this?

EDIT: Actually at BRB pg. 51 it says that vehicle is a Unit type so yes, it should be.. but then again it comes in contraddiction to the "see through your own units" rule.. but that is a minor problem IMHO because its quite obvious that its not referred to vehicles... but still greifers could hang upon this to counter the 3+ save, soooo... thanks GW for your clear and precise codexes.

Of course a vehicle is a unit

Units are defined on page 3 as being composed of models. "A unit will normally consist of several models that fight as a group but may also be single very large or powerful models, such as a battle tank, monstrous creatures..."

It's definitely a unit.

Tom's question is an interesting one. Being in cover is not the same thing as having a cover save. Many special rules grant units cover saves without them necessarily having to be in cover. They can be completely in the open but still have a cover save.

Shrouding's wording does have that second sentence which looks a bit like a caveat/limitation. I'm inclined to say it's not one, though, because that first sentence is so straightforward.

This sounds very, very similar to the Hive Guard wording. And GW ruled on that. Very interestingly, I might add.

I think that page 21 has the best explanation to this in the first paragraph on the page

A position in cover shields troops against flying debris and enemy shots, enabling them to get their heads down or crawl amongst the rocks and (hopefully) avoid harm. Because of this, units in or behind cover receive a cover saving throw.

That tells us that the only time you will get a cover save is when you are "in cover." Since the moving flat out grants a cover save, we can extrapolate that the reason the cover save is granted is that the Stormraven is "in cover" which means that The Shrouding will affect it. Keep in mind that the shrouding does not retroactively give a unit in the open the stealth rule, they receive the 6+ cover save rather than the stealth rule.