Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Or anything, really, for that matter. In jumper-heavy BA lists, I never really see tooled up CC units. Why not? For 320 points, for example, you can get an HG squad with Jump Packs, 4 Storm Shields, 3 Lightning Claws, and 1 Thunder Hammer. Yes, that's 100 points more expensive than Assault Terminators, but nearly as durable, just as killy in most situations, and far more mobile - you don't need to take a transport. The same can be true of Vanguard Veterans. Being relatively new, I understand the "boys before toys" mentality, but it seems like a unit like that would be quite useful, no?

Reason being 320Pts

That's alot for guys with a 3+ armor save, even if alot have a 3++ and have FNP

Take VV's if you'd like to go with some CC

The problem is that you are not being points efficient. An honor guard squad is not as durable as Terminators because at least Terminators have a 2+ Armor save with a 3+ invul, which is far superior to a 3+armor and 3+invul. 320 points is a lot of points for only 5 marines too. They will probably attract a lot of attention and honestly the built in Sanguinary Priest will be wasted if your opponent starts shooting at you with Ap 1 and Ap2 weaponry. I don't really see a need for it. Vanguard Veterans also get expensive very quickly.

I feel that you should have one honour guard with guns and one squad of venguard or sanguinary guard.

The point being that will need to shoot some things and other things can beat assault squads in cc.

Like if you faced some venguard then your assault squads would die. You would need a good cc unit or something to shoot them with instead.

Red Comet wrote:The problem is that you are not being points efficient. An honor guard squad is not as durable as Terminators because at least Terminators have a 2+ Armor save with a 3+ invul, which is far superior to a 3+armor and 3+invul. 320 points is a lot of points for only 5 marines too. They will probably attract a lot of attention and honestly the built in Sanguinary Priest will be wasted if your opponent starts shooting at you with Ap 1 and Ap2 weaponry. I don't really see a need for it. Vanguard Veterans also get expensive very quickly.

Sure, 3+/3++ isn't as good as 2+/3++, but 3+/3++ with FNP is awfully darn close. If the opponent starts shooting with AP1/2 weaponry, well...that's what the Storm Shields are for, same as Terminators. So you end up with a unit that's very close to jump infantry Assault Terminators. More expensive, definitely, but a decent hammer nonetheless I think.

Well, I'd keep the BA HG shooty with 4 special weapons. As said, if you want a cc unit, take a VV unit.

Okay. I think people are missing my point. It can be Vanguard, sure. Tool up five Vanguard with four LCs, four Storm Shields, and a Power Fist. The same applies. It's expensive, but nearly as durable as Assault Terminators, just as killy - and even more against some targets - and far more mobile.

Well, i run them close cambatty and seem to do well. I take one PF, 3 PW, the novitiate, and one chapter banner. I sometimes add the Libby with shied of sang and unleash rage.

I might start trying them as a shooty unit though, probably less expensive, and if i drop 5 meltas in with only 1d6 scatter that might cause some headaches for opponents tanks!

I run:
LC+ Meltagun
LC+Meltagun
PF+Meltagun
ccw+pistol
apoth ccw/powersword + pistol

If I want more ccw I'll swap an LC+MG for a pwep+inf pistol (+1 attack in assault)

My VVets I find 1 power fist and 2 power weapons in 6 guys is enough. If I go a bit mad I can take a squad with storm shields and LC/PF/GE but its' expensive.

for 320 points, I can have 40 guardsmen, 4 of those sergeants with power swords, and 2 commissars with power sword. 18 power weapon attacks, and lets say another 18 regular attacks, will take you down.

Who would win?
remove the 2nd commissar, and replace with 4 meltaguns, and you also have a tank-hunting blob.


what i'm trying to get at here, is that you are definitely doing toys before boys. For my 320 points of guardsmen, you could do 20 tac marines with free upgrades, and those marines will totally slaughter my blob with bolters and in CC. No need for toys, when boys do the work for you.

kyranzor wrote:for 320 points, I can have 40 guardsmen, 4 of those sergeants with power swords, and 2 commissars with power sword. 18 power weapon attacks, and lets say another 18 regular attacks, will take you down.

Who would win?
remove the 2nd commissar, and replace with 4 meltaguns, and you also have a tank-hunting blob.


what i'm trying to get at here, is that you are definitely doing toys before boys. For my 320 points of guardsmen, you could do 20 tac marines with free upgrades, and those marines will totally slaughter my blob with bolters and in CC. No need for toys, when boys do the work for you.

Replace 20 tac with 20 assault marines and you'd be dead on.

err.. except 20 assault marines is 400 points. I can get even more dudes.. like another 10 men, meltagun, and power sword

kyranzor wrote:err.. except 20 assault marines is 400 points. I can get even more dudes.. like another 10 men, meltagun, and power sword

And so? This is BA, you dont run Tacs. Ever.
And actually the difference between the two is only about 40 pts.

kyranzor wrote:for 320 points, I can have 40 guardsmen, 4 of those sergeants with power swords, and 2 commissars with power sword. 18 power weapon attacks, and lets say another 18 regular attacks, will take you down.

Who would win?
remove the 2nd commissar, and replace with 4 meltaguns, and you also have a tank-hunting blob.


what i'm trying to get at here, is that you are definitely doing toys before boys. For my 320 points of guardsmen, you could do 20 tac marines with free upgrades, and those marines will totally slaughter my blob with bolters and in CC. No need for toys, when boys do the work for you.

The same is true of Assault Termies. Different units have different jobs. If you want a hard-hitting, durable unit in DoA armies, it's hard to find.

Sure, you could stack nothing but Assault Marines, but if a couple librarians and 60 ASMs was the best DoA list, we'd know about it by now.

Well, try 5 ten-man unts with fist and melta/infernus pistol all deepstrike/outflanking and see how you go. Maybe a jump pack priest in each squad too. Numbers win games! 50 fast jump pack power armour guys who will be in combat after one round of shooting is crazy. Drop all in on one side/flank and double-team/gang assault everything

I'm definitely on the boys before toys side here.

One major problem with the tooled-up HG that hasn't been mentioned: They can't beat the scariest stuff in CC!

Against 5 TH/SS Terminators, you have 9 LC attacks. That's 4.5 hits, which is 4 wounds for 1.33 dead. So, most of the time 4 get to swing back, which is 8 attacks, 4 hits, about 4 wounds for the loss of one HG if you put all the wounds on guys with SS. You might kill another guy with the TH, so let's say you win 2 to 1. The Termies probably stick around. Now, you get 6 LC attacks, for 3 hits, a little more than 2 wounds. Maybe you don't kill anyone, you still lose another dude. Continuing on, we can see that you basically either win with like 1 guy left or lose the combat. Your squad costs 50% more, and you charged!

Against 20 Shoota Boyz with PK Nob, you kill 4 with the LCs, 1 with the Novitiate. 14 regular Orks attack back, for 28 attacks, 14 hits, 7 wounds, killing one of your squad. You kill another 1-2 orks with the TH, the Nob probably gets 1-2 hits and probably doesn't kill anyone. So you win 5 to 1, another 5 Orks die. Next round, you kill 3 Orks, 7 attack back. Long story short, you win, but you've lost 2-3 guys. The Orks cost what, 180 points? If you're up against Slugga Boyz, you lose this fight. If you're up against a mob of 30 Shootas, you lose.

Let's not even talk about Genestealers.

I could maybe see a tooled-up CC Honor Guard working at 2500 points, where FOC slots are more scarce than points. Otherwise, I'd rather have more Assault Squads with their hidden Power Fists.

I personally think that HG, will most of the time become a priority target no matter what, at least mine does. Therefore i think using SS gives them an edge to survive until T3+ moreover ability to soak up dmg shouldn’t be overlooked.

Maybe have them with just stormshields and chainswords, and one with a TH. Cost less than all those LC, but an opponent might be uaing 500+pts worth of firepower to bring them down. During that time the rest of your army can advance

You're trying to make something a Deathstar that shouldn't bother being one in the first place.

More often than not it will not make up it's points. There are a whole lot of Str8+ and Ap3 and below weapons out there. More often than not you'll be looking at either a 3++ or a 4+ cover save.