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Alright a "trick" my friend likes to do is flamer a group of units and the flamer just "happens" to also hit many units which are in melee so my question is can you place a flame template on melee units (as long as they hit something not in melee) or next time i can tell him to move that sucker over. Next question is in CC while using grenades (like haywire grenades) do i only get 1 grenade per unit or a grenade per base attack (which would be awesome), finally confirm that hitting a dreadnought with Grenade i first need a 6 then whatever the grenade does and on a vehicle that moves or a immobilized dreadnought a 4 and a stationary vehicle auto hits.

Kabalyero wrote:Alright a "trick" my friend likes to do is flamer a group of units and the flamer just "happens" to also hit many units which are in melee so my question is can you place a flame template on melee units (as long as they hit something not in melee) or next time i can tell him to move that sucker over.

No, the template can not be placed over models in close combat. You'll find the rule in the Assault section... there's a section dealing with shooting into and out of close combat (IIRC, it's entitled 'Shooting into and out of close combat').

Next question is in CC while using grenades (like haywire grenades) do i only get 1 grenade per unit or a grenade per base attack

Each model using a grenade gets one attack.

For your first question, the template *MUST* cover as many models as possible in the targeted unit. Furthermore, it is explicitly stated you may not shoot into close combat. Period.

Ninja'd!

1) no shooting at units into close combat, unless its artillery that deveates onto such units on accident. No placing templates over units in close combat.

2) Grenade rules are simple, stop 1 inch from unit your charging, shot pistols/toss grenades, then close combat. Some grenades have special effects so read on those rules in the rule book. units with with grenades all models have them, special grenades like Melta Bomb or Haywire only 1 per unit or as grenade effect.

3) Grenades have a 6 inch throw range on most grenades, unless stated in special rules and grenades are treated before close combat and I believe its depends on how fast the vehicle moves to hit normal on 6 inches or less and -1 or -2 if faster so the 6 rule can come into play.

LordWynne wrote:2) Grenade rules are simple, stop 1 inch from unit your charging, shot pistols/toss grenades, then close combat. Some grenades have special effects so read on those rules in the rule book. units with with grenades all models have them, special grenades like Melta Bomb or Haywire only 1 per unit or as grenade effect.

3) Grenades have a 6 inch throw range on most grenades, unless stated in special rules and grenades are treated before close combat and I believe its depends on how fast the vehicle moves to hit normal on 6 inches or less and -1 or -2 if faster so the 6 rule can come into play.

Er... almost none of that has any basis in actual rules.

Grenades haven't been thrown since 2nd edition.

LordWynne wrote:

2) Grenade rules are simple, stop 1 inch from unit your charging, shot pistols/toss grenades, then close combat. Some grenades have special effects so read on those rules in the rule book. units with with grenades all models have them, special grenades like Melta Bomb or Haywire only 1 per unit or as grenade effect.

3) Grenades have a 6 inch throw range on most grenades, unless stated in special rules and grenades are treated before close combat and I believe its depends on how fast the vehicle moves to hit normal on 6 inches or less and -1 or -2 if faster so the 6 rule can come into play.

Errr...what? That's not how it works at all...not even close.

So, grenades are 'thrown' in CC after the assault is made and on the Initiative level of the attacker? Against Walkers, do you use the 6+4+Autohit rule for vehicles or WS vs WS for CC? I would imagine WS, but I have been wrong about a great many things before.

Grenades are not thrown. They simply have an ingame effect that is stated in their rules.

When using grenades against walkers, they hit on a 6+ against front armour. Normal attacks (from say a powerfist) use the walker's WS and the wielder's WS.

OP to answer your last question: A grenade used in close combat, that is assaulting through cover, allows you to strike at Initiative order.

Against vehicles it depends on how far the vehicle has moved or if it is immobilized, like in the case of a Dreadnaught. If a vehicle is immobilized or hasn't moved at all you hit it automatically, always using the rear armor value no matter where you are assaulting the vehicle, If it moves .5-11.5 inches you hit it on a 4+, and if it moves 12+ inches you hit it on 6's.

For a Dreadnaught you are correct in that you always hit it on 6's unless it is immobilized in which case you use the WS.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:So, grenades are 'thrown' in CC after the assault is made and on the Initiative level of the attacker?

No. In regular combat, grenades have very limited effects. Against vehicles, certain specific grenades can be used instead of your regular close combat attacks.

This is covered in the grenades rules in the Assault section and the Vehicles and Assaults section of the rulebook.

Grenades, P.36.

Pg 63 lists Grenades in three different strength categories, Assault and Defensive being separate from Krak. Just to make sure, Krak Grenades are not Assault Grenades?

Your codex should list what each grenade type is, and the rulebook explains further. In short, no, Krak grenades are not assault grenades. Krak grenades are krak grenades. They have their own category with their own rules as per the rulebook.

The grenades i am talking about are haywire grenades which on a roll 1 nothing 2-5 glance 6 penetrate (think using them like a melta bomb) and mostly i want to know against walkers since those kill me

Kabalyero wrote:Alright a "trick" my friend likes to do is flamer a group of units and the flamer just "happens" to also hit many units which are in melee so my question is can you place a flame template on melee units (as long as they hit something not in melee)

Nope. You must nominate the target unit and cover as many models as possible. If you hit a unit that is also engaged in melee while doing this you have to move the template so the it covers as many models as possible in the target unit and doesn't cover any model engaged in assault and doesn't cover any friendly models.

If you can't pull that off (too close to the target unit and/or can't get the angle) you're SOL and can't use the flamer at all.

Next question is in CC while using grenades (like haywire grenades) do i only get 1 grenade per unit or a grenade per base attack (which would be awesome)

You get one Grenade per model (that has them equipped) against vehicles.

finally confirm that hitting a dreadnought with Grenade i first need a 6 then whatever the grenade does and on a vehicle that moves or a immobilized dreadnought a 4 and a stationary vehicle auto hits.

Correct me if I'm wrong here people!

Walker: Hit on 6s (AP roll against front armor)
Immobilized Walker: Hit based on WS comparison as usual (AP roll against front armor) - not sure on this
Vehicle that didn't move or is immobilized: Auto Hit (AP roll against rear armor)
Vehicle that moved combat speed: Hit on 4+ (AP roll against rear armor)
Vehicle that moved cruising speed or faster: Hit on 6s (AP roll against rear armor)

Nungunz wrote:
Walker: Hit on 6s (AP roll against front armor)
Immobilized Walker: Hit based on WS comparison as usual (AP roll against front armor) - not sure on this
Non-Walker Vehicle that didn't move or is immobilized: Auto Hit (AP roll against rear armor)
Non-Walker Vehicle that moved combat speed: Hit on 4+ (AP roll against rear armor)
Non-Walker Vehicle that moved cruising speed or faster: Hit on 6s (AP roll against rear armor)

That is correct, added the orange for completeness.

Kabalyero wrote:The grenades i am talking about are haywire grenades which on a roll 1 nothing 2-5 glance 6 penetrate (think using them like a melta bomb) and mostly i want to know against walkers since those kill me

You roll to hit with them (1 attack per model using them) - depending on which unit is using them, you may need 6's against non-immobilised or stunned walkers (Eldar Swooping hawks can take them and an exarch ability that makes the 6 a 4+).
If you hit, then you bypass the entire S+d6v AV issue.

Roll d6 again.
on a 1, nothing happens, 2-5 roll the effect of the glancing hit (table -2), 6 penetrating hit (roll on table, apply result).

It's all done in initiative order, too. So it is entirely possible that you could wreck it before it strikes back.

I think Lord Wynne is playing 2nd ed. Nothing the poster said is really based in current rules, so i would just ignore them for now.

DeathReaper wrote:

Nungunz wrote:
Walker: Hit on 6s (AP roll against front armor)
Immobilized or stunned at the start of the assault phase Walker: Hit based on WS comparison as usual (AP roll against front armor) - not sure on this
Non-Walker Vehicle that didn't move or is immobilized: Auto Hit (AP roll against rear armor)
Non-Walker Vehicle that moved combat speed: Hit on 4+ (AP roll against rear armor)
Non-Walker Vehicle that moved cruising speed or faster: Hit on 6s (AP roll against rear armor)

That is correct, added the orange for completeness.

And one more addition to further complete it, how about green............

nosferatu1001 wrote:I think Lord Wynne is playing 2nd ed. Nothing the poster said is really based in current rules, so i would just ignore them for now.

It wasn't right for 2nd edition, either...

We're not sure what game he's playing, we just know he's playing it wrong.

don_mondo wrote:
And one more addition to further complete it, how about green............

Yay colors!