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This is another try at a nids list, suggestions welcome!

HQ Tyranid Prime 2 Boneswords, Deathspitter, Adrenal, Toxin 115
HQ Tyranid Prime 2 Boneswords, Deathspitter, Adrenal, Toxin 115

Elite 2 Zoanthropes Nothing 120
Elite 2 Zoanthropes Nothing 120
Elite 8 Ymgarls Nothing 184

Troop 5 Warriors Venom Cannon, Deathspitters, Adrenal, Toxin 235
Troop 5 Warriors Venom Cannon, Deathspitters, Adrenal, Toxin 235
Troop 30 Termagants Nothing 150
Troop 30 Termagants Nothing 150
Troop 10 Genestealers Adrenal, Toxin, 200

Heavy Carnifex Stranglethorn Cannon 180
Heavy Carnifex Stranglethorn Cannon 180

Total 2004

Warriors and Primes go up field with gaunts as cover, Zoanthropes alonside.
Genestealers infiltrate and try to take out a commander or heavy unit early, Carnifexs providing covering Fire as well as keeping heads down Synapse from the Zoeys
Ymgarls Pop up near enemy Units, and assault, while the genestealers are infiltrated somewhere so that i can get there and kill people

Thoughts?

What Raveners?

heh. lol. made a mistake in my tactics, made a last second change and forgot to change that

You need anti-tank capability, at least in a larger quantity then you currently have. If 4 zoanthropes is the only threat you posses, they will be dead turn 2 barring ridiculos saves imo.

Venom Cannon @ str 6 and -1 to damage is not worth it considering its more expensive then a BS which for 2 less strength you get pinning and a large blast, plus it works well when coupled with devourers. In general though I think the 10 warriors are a poor choice as the points could be much better used in the form of more bodies/AT/or if you don't mind doing a conversion or three some tervigons.

Just my two cents, but you really should work on improving your AT, possibly by putting the thropes in spores, and if you want to use the fexes add devourers to them so they truly are a troop killing/pinning death machine. Perhaps getting rid of at least one of the 5x warrior squads and using that sizable chunk of points on a Trygon prime, or how ever you want to achieve it, but if you ignore your lack of anti-tank your gonna get tabled alot.

If you're goign shooty fexes then dual devourers is perhaps a better route than a single SC and for not much more cost. With BS3 you need number of shots to make a difference and 12 v 1 works for me!

Not a great fan of warriors, but at least you are running at least 5 in a brood which gives them a chance.

Stealers with adrenals and toxin are too expensive. 20 points for a T4, 5+ armour save mode.

Those 30 gant squads seem annoying, but not likely to kill much. I'd go for a 20 strong brood with devourers (60 shots, so the same as the model load out you have) and then get a tervigon in there as a troop.

Alrighty thanks for the replies, so i will work on a new army list and get it upp here soon

I would add bonesword and lash whip onto the Primes. Then if they assault into terrain they are at least going at I1 same time as the enemy models. Also add adrenal glands instead, this will make the Prime S6 I6 and beastly in combat.

You need more anti tank as others have mentioned, you've only got the Zoanthropes and that's it.

Add lash whips to the primes, drop the warriors, they're too expensive and don't survive long enough. Personally I don't like carnifexes but if the work for you then by all means take them. I'd drop the Ymgarls for hive guard. Think about trygons instead of carnifexes, but that's just my opinion.

It's all anti infantry...ish...and Tyranids don't have to try at anti infantry...that's what they are.

HQ Tyranid Prime 2 Boneswords, Deathspitter, Adrenal, Toxin 115
(I can appreciate your want of shootiness with these guys...but they can't do everything...general rule I like to stick by for normal warriors, 2 upgrades...no more. Primes are an exception, I think you don't need Toxin Sacs or Adrenal Glands...I would get a lash whip and that money of a 10pt regen in here)

Elites
(I like your elite choices actually...only way I would change it is to 2 squads of ymgarls and one zoey squad)

Troop 5 Warriors Venom Cannon, Deathspitters, Adrenal, Toxin 235
Troop 5 Warriors Venom Cannon, Deathspitters, Adrenal, Toxin 235
(too many points...make them shooty or assaulty...pick a purpose...they are already assaulty in nature and being as slow as they are i think your shooty upgrades are the way to go. Deathspitter, Adrenal is the only upgrades I would take...I think the barbed strangler is a better option here as well...for wound saturation.)

Troop 30 Termagants Nothing 150
Troop 30 Termagants Nothing 150
I love termagants...I really do...90+ of them is the core of my army...but i think you're not gaining much with them here...too much antiinfantry...your list is only great when your opponent comes to you. I would rather you take more stealers to have more mobility and also that added rending...as for any excess points...gargoyles make for great cover.
Troop 10 Genestealers Adrenal, Toxin, 200
Money...with 10 of them I would say adrenal or toxin...depends on your meta

Heavy Carnifex Stranglethorn Cannon 180
Heavy Carnifex Stranglethorn Cannon 180
(the carnifexes are money because of your amount of multi wound models on the board...but...you aren't getting much out of the one blast...dual devourers is the way to go...also gets you an immense boost in light tank busting)

Id say drop all genestealers including the Ygmarls..

drop one squad of warriors
drop one tyranid prime
drop one or both carnifexs for points towards a tryanofex (id like to say keep one at least but if points are needed they are needed)

Use those points to feild

HQ Tyranid Prime dual talons, toxin sacs 90 pts
Tyrant with dual devs, strangle cannon, old adversary adrenals 280 tps

Elite 2 Zoanthropes drop pods 160
Elite 2 Zoanthropes drop pods 160

Troop 7 Warriors dual talons, Toxin 1 with barbd strangle 255
Troop 30 Termagants devourers 300
Troop 30 Termagants devourers 300
Troop 22 hormagaunts toxin 176

Heavy tyranofex- adrenals-rupture cannon-
desicator thorax swarm- cluster spines - 280

Total 2001

or

drop the hormagaunts and a few termagaunts or a warrior and adrenals on tyranofex and feild
a trygon prime with adrenals -250
OR another tyranofex or more zoans either bigger packs or a 2nd pack of them with pod

remember for competitive lists its better to be under a few points than over a few... most people will gripe over even 1 point above 2k.
better to undershoot by 5 than over shoot by 1 just to stop their whining

-youll have shooting with far greater effectiveness
-your warriors are hardcore mellee killers with the off chance of a good str 4 large blast shot if needed (can drop that for other point areas)
-for can openers and hq droppers you have :
tyrant cc
zoans deep striked kamikaze assaults using their pods as some potential cover
tyranofex(s) rupture cannon or CC
perhaps a trygon prime deep striked.


Im sad to hear not alot of people take trygon primes... again like the tyranofex.. just one of those amazing under used items...
at the very least... a can opener that eats a turn of bullets...

all in all a good list minus your too shooty orientated... trust me i like the large templates as well
VENOM CANNONS ARE USELESS get rid of them on all fronts... the large blast template is better it really is.
Leave your MC's to deal with large enemies like tanks and hqs and elites...
upgrade the shooters to more effective or all they do is tie up for a turn or to maybe a couple kills then die. where as my 200 point 20 shooters get 60 18" shots... yea even that drops a few.. (like 8 or 9) marines. where as 200 pts of regular gaunts is 40 shots at 12" range... not as usefull... not at all.

1- I wouldnt take Toxin sacs or adrenal glands on your Genestealers and Warriors.
Toxin is especially useless for them imo. Genes and Warriors are already wounding your most common opponent (marines) on 4+

Adrenal has its use on warriors for the initiative, but i think its too costly. Useless for I6 genes.

Taking the toxins and glands off the 3 squads would give you 160 points to play with.
AKA 20 Toxin sacced Hormagaunts or 11 more Genes

Also with only 2 MC in the army, your Carnifexes will be massive Targets. I would cut the Gaunt squads to 22 gaunts each and put regen and some Brainleech Devourers on the Carni's

only reason i argue the no toxin sacs on warriors... the reroll missed wounds bonus for them...

the scything talons re-roll missed hits
the toxin allows a non negotiable 4+ wound
-and-
If your str is same or higher than their toughness... all missed wounds can be re rolled as well. so for warriors at str 4 adrenals are pointless but toxin sacs... re roll hits and wounds on all enemies t4 and under

Shadowmyth515 wrote:only reason i argue the no toxin sacs on warriors... the reroll missed wounds bonus for them...

the scything talons re-roll missed hits
the toxin allows a non negotiable 4+ wound
-and-
If your str is same or higher than their toughness... all missed wounds can be re rolled as well. so for warriors at str 4 adrenals are pointless but toxin sacs... re roll hits and wounds on all enemies t4 and under

There is no re-roll to wound. Having Higher Str than the defenders tougness just makes it easier to wound.
Ex: str 4 attackign Str 4 = 4+ to wound but Str 4 attacking T3 = 3+ to wound.

Toxin sacs only add the "Will wound on 4+ regardless of toughness" there is no wound re-roll ability there

With the majority of units that Warriors will CC being T3 & T4 is see very little benefit to the Str 4 warrior who wounds T3 on 3+ and T4 on 4+ already.

However if you are fighting other Nyds or Chaos Demons, Toxin could be useful, and they are the only armies that really field a lot of stuff over T4

Shadowmyth515 wrote:remember for competitive lists its better to be under a few points than over a few... most people will gripe over even 1 point above 2k.
better to undershoot by 5 than over shoot by 1 just to stop their whining

The Reason i quote this, this is a friendly game, i oonly play with my best friend.
so, this list, which i am going to revise, more of a shock build, is just for building and casually playing, literally a few games a year, im very new to the hobby and i like to build, my friend lives a province over, only get to see him 1 time a year.

i want to paint a few genestealers, as well as a carnifex, possibly a Tyrant too, so i am just trying to fit in what i want to paint, and moreso making an army based off of cosmetic purpose, because alot of the time they just sit on a shelf in my room.

i will probably start posting more competitive army lists soon, as i will probably be joining a local gaming club at some point.

anyways, i like the idea of a Trygon, might be fun to paint, and i will probably get a tyrant or 2, equip fexes differently if i want, get more AT and the such

new list soon!

Karnac wrote:

There is no re-roll to wound. Having Higher Str than the defenders tougness just makes it easier to wound.
Ex: str 4 attackign Str 4 = 4+ to wound but Str 4 attacking T3 = 3+ to wound.

Toxin sacs only add the "Will wound on 4+ regardless of toughness" there is no wound re-roll ability there

Re-read the rules on poison.

Paint the Carnifexes up...them being "massive targets" is a great thing...means less S8 being used on Warriors. Generally if you're taking Warriors you want more Multi wound models on the field rather than fewer

Karnac wrote:

Shadowmyth515 wrote:only reason i argue the no toxin sacs on warriors... the reroll missed wounds bonus for them...

the scything talons re-roll missed hits
the toxin allows a non negotiable 4+ wound
-and-
If your str is same or higher than their toughness... all missed wounds can be re rolled as well. so for warriors at str 4 adrenals are pointless but toxin sacs... re roll hits and wounds on all enemies t4 and under

There is no re-roll to wound. Having Higher Str than the defenders tougness just makes it easier to wound.
Ex: str 4 attackign Str 4 = 4+ to wound but Str 4 attacking T3 = 3+ to wound.

Toxin sacs only add the "Will wound on 4+ regardless of toughness" there is no wound re-roll ability there

With the majority of units that Warriors will CC being T3 & T4 is see very little benefit to the Str 4 warrior who wounds T3 on 3+ and T4 on 4+ already.

However if you are fighting other Nyds or Chaos Demons, Toxin could be useful, and they are the only armies that really field a lot of stuff over T4

As said, you're completely wrong on this. The only units that should avoid toxin sacs are MCs.

Karnac buddy.. pick up a nid dex and rule book Toxin sacs give poisoned weapon rule 4+
Its invaluable.... only thing you dont take toxin sacs on are MCs or shooters.

just to keep math easy we will use space marines
charging hormagaunt
hits a 4+ 50/100
3 str to 4 tough wounds on a 5+ 33/100
chance score a wound 1,650/10,000 = 16.5% wounding chance (this is before armour saves, just to score a wound)
3 attacks on a charge 49.5% chance to wound
for a 6 pt model

where as you add toxin sacs
hits a 4+ 50/100
toxin sacs wound on a 4+ 50/100
chance score a wound 2500/10,000 = 25% wounding chance (this is before armour saves, just to score a wound)
3 attacks on a charge 75% chance to wound
8 pt model
---------------------------------------------------------------------
keep in mind thats a marine with 4 toughness... not all models have 4T on a 3T toxin sac is... rediculous as it allows a re roll for failed wounds if str matches or bests targets toughness
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
toss on:
adrenal glands
toxin sacs
hits on a 4+ 50/100
4+ to wound regardless 4+ 75/100 w reroll addition
out off 100 hits 50 fail, re roll 50 failed
same chance 50% 25 score actuall hit chance
50 +25 (re roll wounds) =75 out of the 100
chance score a wound 3750/10000= 37.5% wounding chance (this is before armour saves, just to score a wound)
3 attacks on a charge 112.5% chance to wound
----------------------------------------------
keep in mind adrenals only help with the charge, if they charge you no bonus, in 2nd round of cc, no bonus
I do not run adrenals on my gaunts but i run toxin sacs on anything non-MC
I do not run toxins on my MC's but i do run adrenals on all of them, this allows better tank busting (their already good at) and a chance for better initiaivefor slaying say..... heros lol
_______________________________________________
In closing
toxin sacs for 2 pts is invaluable toxin sacs on anything non mc or dedicated shooty (i dont run them on my termagaunts)
also while fighting anything like tau or well anything with toughness 3 or less... toxin sacs on hormagaunts.... if you dont roll that... your not doing them justice
I dont run both on my hormagaunts even though most my enemy toughness is 4+.... i only take toxin sacs just because i can feild a few more guys for same price and to have a better well rounded squad.

15 toxin sacs is better than 20basic loadouts even when you have more basic loadouts to feild...
its just better statistics wize and point value to wound chance ratio....
even when 5 or 10 die
5-10 vs 10-20.... the toxin sacs point to point still add up far better

Toxin sacs are just a rediculously valuable choice- its stupid to not take them on all mellee non

Shadowmyth515 wrote:Karnac buddy.. pick up a nid dex and rule book Toxin sacs give poisoned weapon rule 4+
Its invaluable.... only thing you dont take toxin sacs on are MCs or shooters.

just to keep math easy we will use space marines
charging hormagaunt
hits a 4+ 50/100
3 str to 4 tough wounds on a 5+ 33/100
chance score a wound 1,650/10,000 = 16.5% wounding chance (this is before armour saves, just to score a wound)
3 attacks on a charge 49.5% chance to wound
for a 6 pt model

where as you add toxin sacs
hits a 4+ 50/100
toxin sacs wound on a 4+ 50/100
chance score a wound 2500/10,000 = 25% wounding chance (this is before armour saves, just to score a wound)
3 attacks on a charge 75% chance to wound
8 pt model
---------------------------------------------------------------------
keep in mind thats a marine with 4 toughness... not all models have 4T on a 3T toxin sac is... rediculous as it allows a re roll for failed wounds if str matches or bests targets toughness
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
toss on:
adrenal glands
toxin sacs
hits on a 4+ 50/100
4+ to wound regardless 4+ 75/100 w reroll addition
out off 100 hits 50 fail, re roll 50 failed
same chance 50% 25 score actuall hit chance
50 +25 (re roll wounds) =75 out of the 100
chance score a wound 3750/10000= 37.5% wounding chance (this is before armour saves, just to score a wound)
3 attacks on a charge 112.5% chance to wound
----------------------------------------------
keep in mind adrenals only help with the charge, if they charge you no bonus, in 2nd round of cc, no bonus
I do not run adrenals on my gaunts but i run toxin sacs on anything non-MC
I do not run toxins on my MC's but i do run adrenals on all of them, this allows better tank busting (their already good at) and a chance for better initiaivefor slaying say..... heros lol
_______________________________________________
In closing
toxin sacs for 2 pts is invaluable toxin sacs on anything non mc or dedicated shooty (i dont run them on my termagaunts)
also while fighting anything like tau or well anything with toughness 3 or less... toxin sacs on hormagaunts.... if you dont roll that... your not doing them justice
I dont run both on my hormagaunts even though most my enemy toughness is 4+.... i only take toxin sacs just because i can feild a few more guys for same price and to have a better well rounded squad.

15 toxin sacs is better than 20basic loadouts even when you have more basic loadouts to feild...
its just better statistics wize and point value to wound chance ratio....
even when 5 or 10 die
5-10 vs 10-20.... the toxin sacs point to point still add up far better

Toxin sacs are just a rediculously valuable choice- its stupid to not take them on all mellee non

I was arguing the merits of Toxin Sacs on Str 4 models, like warriors not str 3 gaunts. Str 3 models like hormagaunts, I agree are almost completly useless without Toxin.

in the case of warriors i think they can do better using thier 5pts per model elsewhere, since theyre wounding most thing 4+ or better anyways. The points he saves could be put into Sacs for his gaunts, which need and benifit from them far more.

as a quick fill to load in 5 pts per model on toxin sacs for warriors...

TAU average toughness 3....
would normaly wound on a 3+ in mellee.... 66/100
with toxin sacs its a forced 4+ but re roll....75/100

Space marine or ork average toughness 4....
would normaly woundd on a 4+ 50/100
with toxin sacs its a forced 4+ but re roll....75/100


not a bad choice if you have 20 or 25 points for a 4-5 man brood or warriors
However you are right in some cases a 4+ average wound isnt bad... just be wary of any space marine or ork basic troops as they will lay slaughter to your face.
maybe even take adrenals.. this is one of those rare troops where a full upgrade may be worth it...
adrenals would give the str 5 on the charge which whould shred anything t3 or less.
then again adrenals are gimmicky if you dont get the charge.... its a useless 5pts per model.
I Run mine as death spitters toxin sacs and 1 set scythign talons, with one guy having a barbed strangler

points heavy but... well for a good slaying unit its not a horrid choice. Great shooting, great melee can move shoot and assault... does amazing work to marines, i dedicate them my elite or tough troop killers,
HOWEVER
sometime i miss the extra points id have as if i ran them as dual scything talons no guns not even barbed strangler... i could run a 9 man brood of CC gods
for what 270 pts? not a bad choice considerign they as well can be deep striked with a pod.
would be what 36 attacks on the charge all re roll to hit and wounds MOST enemies on a 3+.... thats a valid troop right there.
even run a basic loadout tyranid prime it would be a total 350 points squad, 10 CC tyanrid warriors all with great initiative str and ws, On the charge could run 41 attacks ALL rerollable to hit....

Points heavy yea.... but kind of fun if you think about its possibilies plus the squad unless hit by large vaporizing hits... 31 wounds lol.

Alrighty, updated list

HQ Hive Tyrant 2 TL Devourers, Armoured Shell, Hive Commander 265
Bodyguard Tyrant Guard Nothing 60

Elite 2 Zoanthropes Mycetic Spore 160
Elite 2 Zoanthropes Mycetic Spore 160
Elite 2 Hive Guard No Upgrades 100

Troop 20 Termagants Devourers 200
Troop 20 Hormagaunts Toxin Sacs 160
Troop 20 Hormagaunts Toxin Sacs 160
Troop 8 Genestealers Toxin Sacs 136
Troop 10 Termagants Nothing (Objective Capturers) 50
Troop 10 Termagants Nothing (Objective Capturers) 50

Heavy Support Trygon Prime Adrenal Glands 250
Heavy Support Trygon Prime Adrenal Glands 250

So how does this one look? i added the Trygons, i like the primes, and i added a hive tyrant (the tyrant Guard was added as point filler/ wound taker
the 20 unupgraded termies are used, to cap objectives, ad the hormagaunts just rush up with the trygons as synapse in battle
comments?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Another idea for a list, i will also list a 2500 point version, just to show where i got the idea, and where i will go


HQ
Swarmlord 280
Guard- lash whips 65

Elites
2 Hive Guard 100
2 Hive Guard 100
8 Ymgarls 184

Troops
10 Gaunts 50
10 Gaunts 50
5 Stealers 70
5 Stealers 70
Tervigon- adrenals, sacs, clusters, scything talons, catalyst, 200
Tervigon- adrenals, sacs, clusters, scything talons, catalyst, 200

Heavy
Trygon- adrenals 210
Trygon- adrenals 210
Trygon- adrenals 210


Swarmlord 280
2 Guard- lash whips 130
Tervigon, Adrenals, Sacs, Catalyst, Clusters 195

10 ymgarls 230
3 hive guard 150
3 hive guard 150

3 Troop Tervigons- adrenals, sacs, catalyst, clusters 195 ea.
3 units of 10 gaunts 50 ea.
3 Trygons- adrenals 210 ea.

any thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Allow me to just add, if you have questions or comments, feel free to email me!

2,000 pont list would greatly benefit from dropping the vanilla gants and getting a tervigon in there. Gants are then free, you get FNP and boost the gants. How to free up the 95 points needed? Armoured shell and prime upgrades on the trygons are the most obvious. You could also trim 1-2 gants/gaunts from the remaining squads.

IMO the gants in the 2000 should be replaced with however many tervigons you can fit in. I've heard that Zoans arn't as good as hive gaurd, so I'd drop one unit of zoans and get more hive gaurd. Also, I'd recomend dropping the prime upgrades on the trygons.

alrighty, did you read my updated lists, i have 2 squads of termies, and 2 troop termies, i fixed that up earlier