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It's time to get furry, grab some cheese, wear a cloak, and enter the world of Mouseguard! The D6G crew give a detailed review of this very flavorful RPG based on the beloved comic series.

But up first, it's time for another mulling mechanics. What are the latest crop of mechanics that Raef, Craig, and Russ are finding similar across game systems?

All that and our other not-too-horrible segments including:
- The Hollywood Minute
- Total Fan Girl
- Do You Ever Notice
- & More

Link to episode:
http://www.thed6generation.com/d6g-ep-89-mouseguard-detailed-review-and-mulling-mechanics


Please let us know what you think!!

Hey fellas, just finished the latest Lost Chapter (I need to download ep 89, I guess...didn't know it was finished until I just logged on here).

Anyway, I'm pretty 50/50 with you guys on the "Guilty Displeasures". I really enjoy Puerto Rico and Agricola, but like you I don't care for Dominion...and I've never had the itch to play MtG. I'll also say that I have absolutely no interest in 40K stuff - not the miniatures games, not the role playing games, not the books...nothing about it appeals to me (which has made some of your episodes a little long to listen to ). I don't think I've ever seen 30 seconds of any Doctor Who series, ever.

However, what I'm really logging on to comment about is the "Wheel of Time" books. You asked if there were gamers out there that enjoyed the books. Well, I do. I don't love them - but I do like them. I did love the series in the beginning, but it did fall off somewhat for me. It's interesting that Craig says he stopped after the first book. The first one is a bit derivative (a little too Tolkien-esque), but the next few pick it up. The general consensus about the books seems to be that the first 4-5 are really good, and set a brisk pace. A lot of people have the same complaint that the next several books (volumes 6-10 or so) slowed the pace down tremendously and really dragged out some tedious side stories. At about book 11 or so, it picked up again, and then of course Robert Jordan unfortunately passed away. The replacement author, Branden Sanderson, has done a fair job, I think and has picked up the pace considerably - although in some respects it feels like since books 6-10 didn't really advance the plot all that much, the last few books are really rushing to tie things together. (BTW, this caused me to check out Sanderson's own original series - the "Mistborn" series is pretty good, and has a very unique magic system - I recommend it).

Part of my enjoyment of the series may be nostalgia. I started with this series when book 1 was first published, so I've literally been reading it for 20ish years. This series, in my mind, really played a part in kicking off the renaissance of good new fantasy series that have been coming out for the last 10-20 years...i.e., it paved the way for some series that weren't following the mold of "A D&D adventure written as a novel" that seemed so prevalent in the '80s. I picked up the "Legends" anthology to read the "Wheel of Time" short story included in that, and read the other short stories in that book, including "The Hedge Knight", a short story set on the continent of Westeros by some guy named George R.R. Martin. That got me to pick up "A Game of Thrones", and that led me to pick up series by R. Scott Bakker, Joe Abercrombie, Guy Gavriel Kay, Robin Hobb, Jim Butcher, Patrick Rothfuss, etc. Those authors owe a lot to Robert Jordan, in my opinion. GRRM has openly acknowledged that he doesn't think "A Game of Thrones" would have done as well without the cover blurb he got from Jordan - there's a character in Westeros named for Jordan - "Lord Trebor Jordayne of Tor" or somesuch (Trebor being "Robert" backwards, and Tor being the publisher of "Wheel of Time").

Wheel of Time is not without it's flaws - primary among them being tangential plot threads that take up multiple books and become tedious. Then again, if you're a new reader, and can read them all through at once, maybe it's not so bad. Waiting years for a book, that doesn't end up advancing the plot much can be tedious (*cough* A Dance With Dragons *cough*). There's also a fantastic array of characters, major and minor - but it's probably a bit *too* fantastic. I'll be honest - I can't keep track of all the characters. If you don't like the descriptions of food and banners in GRRMs books, the "braid pulling" and "dress tugging" and male characters complaining about not understanding women, and women complaining about not understanding men will start to drive you nuts in "A Wheel of Time".

But, I've still enjoyed the 20 year ride, and look forward the final installment coming out in 2012.

Not sure I like the idea of a rotating host. I always thought the best episodes were the ones where you guys were able to banter about the games you all played together. I thought you would go with someone from the local gaming group to build on the comraderie aspect of the show. I like hearing from gamer celebs, but more so in the case of an interview. If the third chair rotates, I worry that it will be hard to settle into a comfortable, familiar voice. Don't let me rain on the parade, though. I know you guys will work to make it awesome even if things don't go according to plan.

Great episode as usual. Do You Ever Notice got me wondering about how many downloads you get each episode. Is that secret info, or can it be shared?

I loved Raef's mention of Marty Stouffer. There are many fond memories of watching his shows on PBS in my family.

I enjoyed 89, except for more realization of the fact that the Reign of Raef is quickly running out. It's amazing to me that you guys are still pushing out great content so many episodes later. :: nostalgia harp :: I still remember that day when I downloaded a new podcast with three guys talking very intelligently about the differences between the GW games and the Privateer games, just after that four-minutes of Rapidfire. Heh.

Dungeon Twister
I had an interesting realization while listening to mulling mechanics. Have none of you ever played Dungeon Twister? It is the first game I can remember that had that dynamic that Russ liked - a limited number of cards, everyone starting with equal amounts, and the cards being used up as you go. (Technically, you keep using your +0 card, but it is the worst one.) When a group of characters mob up during a fight, you consider the mob as a whole instead of lining up fights separately (which Craig might like).

The game itself is a fun skirmish game. The evil archmagus has trapped your team in his maze, scattering your team and their items. He's so powerful that you can't kill him, but he will let you go if you outplay the OTHER team, or just kill enough of them. There are great bits with rotating squares built in to change the complexion of things. The worst thing I can say about this game is that if you play with strongly different skill levels, the better (or more focused) guy will usually win. There're some neat choices to make about RISK and STRATEGY. Players set up their initial line (four guys) to explore the maze and then take turns placing the remaining team members and items around the maze, face down. (Presumably the team members are magically tied up until discovered.)

The strategy element is a main one. Do you want to kill the other characters or run for the exit? Or both, because they score points equally? Or feign one and then suddenly reverse tactics, ganging up with your heavies on the characters who were scattering to head off your puny goblin before he scores? Heh.

The risk element is that when you turn over a maze tile when exploring, the opposing player puts all YOUR chits in the room where he wants them and you put all HIS chits where you want them. If you put the blasting rod (one-shot, kills really mean heavies) in the wrong spot, your opponent may pick it up and blast your OWN troll with it. And that goblin you put near the other team's exit will be placed so that he has to run through the entire exploration squad and leap a pit to get out.

There are nice resource issues in that you have a limited number of [add something] to your combat value and unlimited use of [add 0] to try to pull the best cards from your opponent. Once the Add 1,2,3,4,5,6 are gone, you only have the [Add 0]. You also have a limited number of action cards - 2,3,4, or 5 actions. These cards recycle when all four have been used once, so you're always trying not to leave yourself open with only a 2 actions left if your opponent is moving into contact range and hasn't used that 5 action card yet.

Guilty Displeasures
I also am not so fond of Dominion. I initially enjoyed exploring the synergies, but Gee Whiz, I have bought more land than you is a boring ending. I vastly prefer Thunderstone, with that whole storyline feel. Even when you get a lousy draw, it's usually funny. "So this one militiaman is sitting around with three axes, popping Goodberries into his mouth and cleaning his teeth with a dagger while everyone else is working? Why, I oughta...." The cooperative variant helps pull in the less gamery gamers, although it can be pretty harsh if you don't cheat and non-randomly include some more obvious synergies to help the newbies get a feel for what to do. Even better, the wife will play Thunderstone with me, more or less weekly, down the coffee shop on a Saturday morning. It's a nice tradition.

Artemis Fowl, Leviathan, Ready Player One
My students really loved the Artemis Fowl books coming in from fifth grade. I found that much like the Lemony Snicket books, the eleven year-olds and the author found them 30% funnier than I did. They were okay. I passed after number two. Craig will have to let us know if he likes further episodes.

On the other hand, I vastly enjoy the Leviathan series. I found Westerfeld's Uglies series more relevant in terms of what happens and societal pressure, but these books are more fun. Uglies is a healthful dinner and Leviathan is pure Lemon Meringue. We do a summer reading activity day and I had kids who had read Leviathan. You should have seen the middle schoolers creating their Darwinist creations (mixing traits into a base species) and building Clanks (using a simplified "you can only have so much of anything" point system ala Battletech). There was a fascinating gender/age dichotomy in that all the girls created creatures with several borrowed traits and all of the sixth-grade boys built walkers. The older boys tended to vary, especially the eighth-grade boys who had worked out that Darwinist creatures were popular with eighth-grade girls. Of course, the Crocoberry pie (my own Darwinist creation) was popular too.

I am sooo tempted to get Ready Player One, but it's still $13 plus shipping at best. I really loathe "you can opt out later" arrangements, but I may just have to cave and take a trial membership to Audible to hear Ready Player One...

Nicole joins the MMO crowd?
I can understand Nicole's reluctance to get into the MMO thing. If it weren't for a connection to a pop culture referent, I would never have tried one either. About two years ago, I tried out Champions over the summer, when I had time. It was really fun to play superheroic characters in a universe in which the big name (boss or NPC) characters were all people I recognized from the paper and pencil Champions I played back in the late 70's and early 80's. On the other hand, I eventually ran into grind and became annoyed with the way MMOs have to limit your ability to do stuff to allow multiple people to play at once. (For example, it still annoyed me to zoom past muggers even if I HAD gotten the "points" for saving the lady because darn it, superheroes don't zoom past muggers, they violate their civil liberties!) I was a bit relieved when school neared and I had a good excuse to break things off so I had time to do all those teachery things.

Does Nicole read the forums? I do have one nugget of advice for her. Nicole, you SHOULD choose two characters, one light and one dark, and then play the heck out of one. Later, use the other to look around at things. It can be a whole different game under the right circumstances. I initially took a guy who was a speedster with some martial arts skills, and I HATED the location Snake Gulch. Most of the action happens on inaccessible mesas and fighting my way through some very difficult combos up the chokepoints (because speedsters can't run up walls, just really fast along ramps) was making me crazy. Later I came back with the Plastic-man-meets-Punk leaper and just leapt to the more interesting spots instead. I also joined different groups (guilds, basically) with different characters and got to see different subsets of the online clientele. I found that the antidote to grind was to play until the situation annoyed me, then switch to the other guy.

Dungeon World (from Apocalypse World)
I have been messing around with Dungeon World, a different storytelling style RPG that is adapted from a game called Apocalypse World. It's a D&D-like game with simple stats and really cool ways to interact. It has a little more touchy-feely than your D&D and a little more obvious mechanics structure than your Burning Wheel/Mouseguard. I can hardly wait until the spring of 2012 when the real books (as opposed to playtest PDFs ala Warmachine relaunch) come out. If you liked the idea of looser games but were a little unhappy with finding "a fair compromise," you might look at this, a real steal for $5. Russ, it might also work with the girls since the GM-like person is encouraged to keep an open mind on events and find out how to make the player characters have a good story instead of tell the GM's story.

Agreement across the board
I hate to be all dittoey, but I'm with Maniple in at least one thing. I loved the banter and discussion that came from all three of you having two (or sometimes four) opinions on games and hearing you working it out by referring to your common experience. There will be less of that with a rotating third. Hopefully, your microcelebrities will be like many of your interviews, where you were able to draw a strong personality from your interviewee.

Looking forward to #100 already!

Juan

I enjoyed the episode - I liked the Mulling Mechanics segment, it's fun to hear about games I might otherwise never play. Russ' discussion of Fish Eat Fish got me thinking that it would be neat to have a segment on great family games; my daughter is coming up on four years old, loves games, and I can't take much more UNO Moo.

P.S. minor nitpick - weasels aren't rodents, they're mustelids, related to badgers, skunks, and wolverines.

Achievement unlocked! I just reached the end of another D6 Generation podcast!

...and so begins the long, dark (near) fortnight of waiting for the next episode :-(

As per usual, I enjoyed the episode. Although, I confess this time around it was more due to the personalities involved than the actual content. While I appreciate a good mechanic in a game (and, especially, an innovative one!)...Mulling Mechanics is just not one of my favorite segments of the D6G. But, you guys managed to make it entertaining. It plays like a couple of guys sitting around the local gamery shooting the breeze. And there's nothing wrong with that!

However, the talk of a wind mechanic and sidetracking into discussion of the Patrick O'Brian books and the Horatio Hornblower books was quite timely indeed. I picked up Dread Fleet and am in the process of building that right now. But, I've also found myself extremely intrigued by the announcement from Ares Games of the Sails of Glory miniatures game coming in 2012. This is an Age of Sail game from the folks who created Wings of War (now called Wings of Glory) and will use a similar system. The first release will be set in the time of the Napoleonic Wars. My excitement over the coming game has got me wanting to read those books now (as if I didn't already have more than enough to read!). So, thanks for that discussion, guys!

Mouse Guard - I'm with Craig on this one. Game-wise, it sounds interesting, I suppose. Theme-wise? It holds zero appeal to me. It should be noted for potential Mouse Guard RPG players, however, that Reaper does a series of minis called Mouselings that could probably work well with the game (if minis can even be incorporated into the system):

http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/mouselings

Craig - your brief discourse on fame and celebrity was interesting. I know this past Gen Con I was really looking forward to seeing you guys and chatting you all up, but when I saw you all outside of the Meeting Room before the Play-By-Mob event, I clammed up. I had a brief exchange with Raef, and make a comment or two to you...but overall, I think I clammed up a bit. "What to I even have to say to these guys? I mean, they're the D6 Generation and I'm just a schmo with a blog and a readership of 10 on a good day!" Ah well. Maybe next year.

And Nicole? I hope you plan to do a follow up on your MMO experience. I'm not an MMOer myself, so I'm curious to your response to The Old Republic.

Hi guys, I'm about 3/4 done with your newest podcast, and I wanted to mention some things before I forget them.

Great Mulling Mechanics section. I really enjoyed the discussion on the various ways games handle combat. It's interesting that Russ mentioned A Game of Thrones as one of the combat systems he really enjoys. I'm surprised though that there was no mention of Diplomacy, which Game of Thrones borrows heavily from.

This brings up a combat system that you didn't talk about at all. The completely non-random combat. In A Game of Thrones, and Fish Eat Fish I guess, which card you play alters the combat so there is some question as to who will win. In Diplomacy, there is no randomness or question at all. Two units always beat one unit.

One of the reasons I enjoy Diplomacy so much is the complete lack of randomness in combat. There are no dice, cards, or any other way to alter the outcome of combat. The person with superior numbers always wins, unless the other player has aid from a third player.

Another game that uses a similar completely nonrandom combat system is Imperial and Imperial 2030. Additionally, if you removed the combat die from Small World, it also follows this method of combat. If I have more Trolls than you have Elves, I will win no matter what. There is no way you can stop me.

I love Mouse Guard, and I'm thrilled that you guys reviewed the rpg. I'm actually in the middle of that segment right now. Maybe it's my OCD rearing its head, but when Raif was explaining the background of the game, that it's based on the comic, he said that only one mini-series was available as a collection. A quick trip over to http://www.archaia.com/archaia-titles/mouse-guard/, the comic's web-page revealed that, in fact, there are three collections available: Mouse Guard Fall 1152, Mouse Guard Winter 1152, and Legends of the Guard. I should know, considering that I own all three. I don't mean to be this harsh, but if you're going to review a product, and inform your listeners about it, at least get your information right.

Additionally, on that note, there is no book series that the Burning Wheel is based off of. It is solely an RPG game. A quick trip to the Burning Wheel Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Burning_Wheel reveals that there are a couple books in the Burning Wheel game system:

The Burning Wheel (which contains the rules and mechanics)
The Character Burner (which explains and helps you build your character)
The Monster Burner (rules and mechanics for using pre-made monsters and the ability to create your own)
The Magic Burner (a more in depth look at various rule systems for magic in the game and create-your-own spell rules)
The Adventure Burner (three ready-to-play scenarios and extensive commentary on how to play Burning Wheel and the creator's thoughts on roleplaying in general)

Besides these general rule books, there have also been released various settings to play Burning Wheel in. They are:

Under a Serpent Sun, described as "Suicidal despair in a post-apocalyptic wasteland" (thing Gamma World

Burning Sands: Jihad, a science fiction expansion of galaxy-spanning religious war. (based heavily off of Dune)

The Blossoms are Falling, based in Heian-era Japan. "You play fearsome bushi trapped between honor and shame, wise Shinto priests who seek to placate the spirits who protect Nihon, powerful Buddhist monks who pray for the souls of the dead while plying strong influence at court, and powerful courtiers battling for control of the failing state."

I know I shouldn't expect lots of research from a podcast that I download for free, but if I can find this information out within 2 minutes by using a simple google search, I would hope that you would do the same, especially for a small independent game that, probably, a lot of people have never heard of before.

Besides being a fan of Mouse Guard, I also play Burning Wheel so these two things really bothered me. Burning Wheel is completely different from any other RPG I've ever played, that the fact that you guys didn't do the proper research on it, bugs me. The game focuses a lot more on actual role playing, and inter-party conflict, instead of just being a hack n slash.

As a future topic for mulling mechanics, why not talk about the various RPG systems out there and the philosophies that they're based on? Why not talk about DnD, the World of Darkness, Warhammer Fantasy Third Edition, the other Warhammer 40K games, and Burning Wheel. I know you guys are primarily a board gaming podcast, but if you're going to talk about something, inform yourself first.

Sorry if this comes off as very harsh. Maybe I just expect more from you guys.

@Juan Why, yes, I do read the forums! I think how I play will come down to how much time I can find for the game. I'm hoping I can manage to play the one character, no matter how much I love the universe. I do like the idea of going back to investigate the things that I've missed, but I just don't know if it'll happen. But, I will take your advice, create two and see what happens. I think that if I do end up enjoying the universe and the game in general, then I'll likely go back and play with that second character. But, which one do I play to start...good guy or bad guy?!?!

@Jeff There will definitely be a follow-up once the game releases, and I am so so hoping it will be a happy follow-up.

jabrams007 wrote:Hi guys, I'm about 3/4 done with your newest podcast, and I wanted to mention some things before I forget them.

Great Mulling Mechanics section. I really enjoyed the discussion on the various ways games handle combat. It's interesting that Russ mentioned A Game of Thrones as one of the combat systems he really enjoys. I'm surprised though that there was no mention of Diplomacy, which Game of Thrones borrows heavily from.

This brings up a combat system that you didn't talk about at all. The completely non-random combat. In A Game of Thrones, and Fish Eat Fish I guess, which card you play alters the combat so there is some question as to who will win. In Diplomacy, there is no randomness or question at all. Two units always beat one unit.

One of the reasons I enjoy Diplomacy so much is the complete lack of randomness in combat. There are no dice, cards, or any other way to alter the outcome of combat. The person with superior numbers always wins, unless the other player has aid from a third player.

Another game that uses a similar completely nonrandom combat system is Imperial and Imperial 2030. Additionally, if you removed the combat die from Small World, it also follows this method of combat. If I have more Trolls than you have Elves, I will win no matter what. There is no way you can stop me.

Howdy! Yep, didn't cover completely non-random combat as is found in Chess, Checkers, and the games you mentioned, but that is a good point.

I love Mouse Guard, and I'm thrilled that you guys reviewed the rpg. I'm actually in the middle of that segment right now. Maybe it's my OCD rearing its head, but when Raif was explaining the background of the game, that it's based on the comic, he said that only one mini-series was available as a collection. A quick trip over to http://www.archaia.com/archaia-titles/mouse-guard/, the comic's web-page revealed that, in fact, there are three collections available: Mouse Guard Fall 1152, Mouse Guard Winter 1152, and Legends of the Guard. I should know, considering that I own all three. I don't mean to be this harsh, but if you're going to review a product, and inform your listeners about it, at least get your information right.

Hmm, I thought Raef did mention all three of the series when we discussed the importance of the concept of 'seasons' in the RPG, but I could be mistaken and we may have glossed over it.

Additionally, on that note, there is no book series that the Burning Wheel is based off of. It is solely an RPG game. A quick trip to the Burning Wheel Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Burning_Wheel reveals that there are a couple books in the Burning Wheel game system:

The Burning Wheel (which contains the rules and mechanics)
The Character Burner (which explains and helps you build your character)
The Monster Burner (rules and mechanics for using pre-made monsters and the ability to create your own)
The Magic Burner (a more in depth look at various rule systems for magic in the game and create-your-own spell rules)
The Adventure Burner (three ready-to-play scenarios and extensive commentary on how to play Burning Wheel and the creator's thoughts on roleplaying in general)

Besides these general rule books, there have also been released various settings to play Burning Wheel in. They are:

Under a Serpent Sun, described as "Suicidal despair in a post-apocalyptic wasteland" (thing Gamma World

Burning Sands: Jihad, a science fiction expansion of galaxy-spanning religious war. (based heavily off of Dune)

The Blossoms are Falling, based in Heian-era Japan. "You play fearsome bushi trapped between honor and shame, wise Shinto priests who seek to placate the spirits who protect Nihon, powerful Buddhist monks who pray for the souls of the dead while plying strong influence at court, and powerful courtiers battling for control of the failing state."

I know I shouldn't expect lots of research from a podcast that I download for free, but if I can find this information out within 2 minutes by using a simple google search, I would hope that you would do the same, especially for a small independent game that, probably, a lot of people have never heard of before.

Besides being a fan of Mouse Guard, I also play Burning Wheel so these two things really bothered me. Burning Wheel is completely different from any other RPG I've ever played, that the fact that you guys didn't do the proper research on it, bugs me. The game focuses a lot more on actual role playing, and inter-party conflict, instead of just being a hack n slash.

Wow, I didn't not realize that Burning Wheel had such diverse usage. I don't think Raef's intent was to focus on Burning Wheel, but I do agree when one does not have knowledge about something one should not guess. Although I do think we were clear that we didn't have any experience with Burning Wheel.

(FYI Raef's name is spelled Raef, not Raif, which you can discover with a quick check of the D6G website. See how easy it can be to make a mistake?)

As a future topic for mulling mechanics, why not talk about the various RPG systems out there and the philosophies that they're based on? Why not talk about DnD, the World of Darkness, Warhammer Fantasy Third Edition, the other Warhammer 40K games, and Burning Wheel. I know you guys are primarily a board gaming podcast, but if you're going to talk about something, inform yourself first.

Something like this is in the works. Stay tuned!!

Sorry if this comes off as very harsh. Maybe I just expect more from you guys.

Sorry we disappointed you on this one. But rest assured that Raef and I both did enjoy Mouseguard, both the books and the game, and hopefully by the time you get to the end of the segment you'll get that impression from our review.

nicolewakelin wrote:@Juan Why, yes, I do read the forums! I think how I play will come down to how much time I can find for the game. I'm hoping I can manage to play the one character, no matter how much I love the universe. I do like the idea of going back to investigate the things that I've missed, but I just don't know if it'll happen. But, I will take your advice, create two and see what happens. I think that if I do end up enjoying the universe and the game in general, then I'll likely go back and play with that second character. But, which one do I play to start...good guy or bad guy?!?!

You are a Jedi, like the fanbase before you. You GOTTA start with the light side and THEN move to the dark.

I think I know who the first guest host will be (from your hints in the latest LC), and I'm really excited about seeing how it goes!

Hey guys, just wanted to say thanks for revealing the wonderful game that is The Burning Wheel. I've gotten my hands on the Gold Edition, and I'm now busy trying to set up a group.