Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi guys, i wanna discuss the Eldar Shining Spears and how would be an effective method of using them, i can see plenty of potential for them on the board. i was thinking that (like most Aspect warriors) they need to be paired with a second CC unit, where that unit ties up the opponent's unit then the Shining Spears give the death blow to the unit (or at least a heavy hit), but the problem i seem to be having is that, if you hit and run during your turn (if they're alone in taking on an enemy unit) they get shot, but if you wait until the end of the opponent's assault phase, you lose your PW ability plus your Str 6, in addition; hardly any unit in the game that doesn't have at least one member that can ignore armour (PF or PW etc) so i'll need some second or third opinions on the matter. i've heard paul kelly use these really well, but i'm sorry to say i don't know here to see the report or anything.

I'm facing GK and CSM mainly, so i thought high Str charge to wipe out 5 man squads of termies (who can't get Storm Shields =D) however they have their own tricks, my chaos friend will most likely pick mark of Nurgle or mark of Tzeentch to make it harder to kill him, but i'm thinking he'd more fond of the mark of Nurgle, my GK friend naturally can get nemesis halberds and then he can kill my aspect warriors before they hit (except the Exarch of course, where they hit at the same time).

Any help is appreciated =D

I have used a unit for years man, and I can honestly say you should not buy the models or use them in a game. There are just way too many problems with them: they are too expensive for models that are only as tough as a marine, so even a bit of shooting at them hurts too much. They have no invulnerable save. They have 1 attack base, no close combat weapons bonus or anything. Their hit and run ability is based on the exarch, so if he takes a save and fails you're boned. Most of all, they are only good for one round of combat, and only if you charge. All these things together mean that unless you hit the perfect combination of events (ie you're not unlucky, your opponent screws up a bit and you are facing an army that doesn't laugh at such an assault) you will just waste the unit. And if you do get to use them you will probably lose the shining spears right afterwards, and there aren't many targets they can take which are more costly then they are.

Basically they are overpriced and underpowered. All the modern codexes can get models that make these guys look pathetic (in every round of combat not just the one they charge into) for less points. This makes them almost impossible to get results out of. I think when I used them most of their successes were against vehicles that didn't fight back - of course that was a pretty bloody expensive way of taking out tanks.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Basically they are overpriced and underpowered. All the modern codexes can get models that make these guys look pathetic (in every round of combat not just the one they charge into) for less points. This makes them almost impossible to get results out of. I think when I used them most of their successes were against vehicles that didn't fight back - of course that was a pretty bloody expensive way of taking out tanks.

If you're after tanks wouldn't warlocks be better?

So it's a waste of time? i hope they fix them in the next codex. so what should i get instead? i'm running jetbike heavy list ugro why i thought spears were a good idea, the problem is i need some more combat units in my army

Tri wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Basically they are overpriced and underpowered. All the modern codexes can get models that make these guys look pathetic (in every round of combat not just the one they charge into) for less points. This makes them almost impossible to get results out of. I think when I used them most of their successes were against vehicles that didn't fight back - of course that was a pretty bloody expensive way of taking out tanks.

If you're after tanks wouldn't warlocks be better?

Yes, absolutely. I just meant that the high risk of putting them against enemy assault units led me to run them after tanks, since they didn't get immediately butchered if they whiffed their attacks, and if the tank was damaged/wrecked but not exploded they would have something to hide behind!

I love the idea and the models are still cool, but they just don't have enough power or resilience for their cost. OP, what you want as the combat unit in a jetbike army is a seer council - warlocks mounted on jetbikes, accompanied by a farseer with the 'guide' power.

Black Dragon Ninja wrote:So it's a waste of time? i hope they fix them in the next codex. so what should i get instead? i'm running jetbike heavy list ugro why i thought spears were a good idea, the problem is i need some more combat units in my army

They worked just fine when the codex came out ... but that's back in 4th.

@ I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly ... just making the point that they don't do anything very well

Black Dragon Ninja wrote:So it's a waste of time? i hope they fix them in the next codex. so what should i get instead? i'm running jetbike heavy list ugro why i thought spears were a good idea, the problem is i need some more combat units in my army

Jetseer council! Best close combat unit in the codex

If you aren't in the know,

take a Farseer on a jetbike with fortune, and a squad of warlocks on jetbikes. It'll look somewhat this in an army list.

[130] Farseer- Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Fortune
[335] 7 Warlocks- 7 Jetbikes, 1 Embolden, 1 Enhance

This gives you 8 bodies, fortune lets them re roll their 3+ armor saves or their 4+ invulnerable saves. Witchblades always wounding on a 2 force tons of saves in close combat with infantry, and s9 positively wrecks tanks. If you multi charge a parking lot with this squad you win.

This is basically the cheapest you can field the squad, so keep that in mind. A lot of players add on doom and several Destructors to their warlocks as well. These upgrades add lots of anti infantry ranged fire power, but aren't as crucially important as bodies, for extra durability and more attacks in close combat.

That said its a expensive and annoying to assemble the squad as there is no kit (stupid I know). So you have to either get the bits from Chapter House or just convert them on your own.

The reason Warlocks are better than Shining Spears for a variety of reasons
1) Pistols! Warlocks have 1 attack base + 1 from the pistol. Meaning they get more attacks than Shining Spears in all situations
2) Better close combat weapons. Witchblades are murder against tanks, and always wounding on a 2+ is useful against infantry. Importantly, Witchblades always have their bonuses while laser lances lose theirs
3) Better durability. Larger squad size and having an invulnerable save makes them more durable to all types of weapons. Jetlocks are a defensive deathstar, and if they get fortune off they can often absorb an entires army's worth of fire power.
4) Better ranged weapon options. yea, some of those warlocks can pack destructor. Have fun hosing down Guards or Orks with 2-4 heavy flamers... possibly with doom support.

Basically, you pay a few more points, and get a much better unit. Warlock Bikers are easily the best close combat unit in the codex. When fortune goes off they leave Banshees and Harlequins in the dust. They also make an absolute mockery of striking scorpions, better tougness, and because their weapons always wound on a 2, they often force more saves than Scorpions.

If you are already running an expensive jetbike themed Eldar army, these are an incredibly worthy investment. Especially since you'll already be making a bunch of warlocks to go with your jetbikes. Or at least you better be doing that because you really don't want to be putting GJB on the field without embolden...

I don't necessarily advocate using Shining Spears but I suppose if I were going to I would have two Autarchs with Laser Lances accompany them to give them more punch on that critical assult.

For movement I would hide them behind a wall of wave serpents to block line of sight to them from shooters. I would also use them as a counter assult unit if someone planned on assulting your wave serpents. Sometimes that can act as a deterrent but not often.

I would also use their ability to re roll dangerous terrain tests to position them in cover whenever I wasn't turbo boosting them and they had to be in the open. For shooting I would just use them to pop out from the wall of Wave Serpents, shoot, and move back into the protection of the tanks if you can. But that requires some pretty precise movement and isn't easy to pull off.

Generally though I would not use them given the choice between them and the seer council.

Yeah, i already have a Council, and i know why they're good, but i want another powerful CC unit that can take the strain off the council, i don't want to overwork the council, it just leads to problems, and i have considered a squad of HB in a WS, but then the idea of Harlequins also rang a lovely tune to me, but then the problem is i have an awesome CC unit trailing behind my jetbikes and tanks, so i think i end up running HB, because they're certainly up to taking on CSM and GK and with a Doomseer it's all the better =P